Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

salsa said:
I wish they would just drop the Royal Orchard station already. There's no justification for it.
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I wouldn't say that. Without Royal Orchard Stn, the gap between Clark and Hwy 7 stations will be about 3 km, amongst the widest on the system. This may be comparable to gaps from Warden to Kennedy, or from Kennedy to Lawrence East on the future SSE, but all other gaps are a lot shorter.

Furthermore, the locals will see a massive drop in transit service level if there is no Royal Orchard Stn. Viva will operate north of Hwy 407 only, no matter what. The section of Yonge south of the 407 will go from very frequent Viva to only having the 99 local, and may be the 77 and the 3, dependent on how they are routed.

Royal Orchard Stn won't have lots of ridership, but there are a few multi-storeys on the east side of Yonge, and I'd guess that even the SFH areas near Yonge have a higher transit usage share than York Region on average, just because the present-day transit is so much better than average. So, it won't be the worst station on the system.
 
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My two cents…

1) The TTC subway system (especially the Yonge line) is an unmitigated disaster. What should be a quick 20 minute ride from Finch to Union is almost always a hideous 40-50 minute ride from hell. As a 30+ year rider of the system, I have seen this with my own eyes. Are we going to add more people from York Region into this mess? Does anyone honestly believe that this magical new signal system with automated trains is actually going to work, let alone live up to the promises of the TTC?

2) When, exactly, is the TTC going to fix the problematic signals approaching Davisville Station?! Yes, we have been told that it is decades old technology, but can't ANYONE figure this out?! How many hundreds of millions of dollars of lost productivity can be put on this problem? In 2016, I asked the TTC's Brad Ross these exact questions. His response, 'we are replacing the whole signalling system'. Well, how is that going? How many years behind schedule is that?

3) How does anyone in a civilized, progressive society EVEN CONSIDER tunnelling under peoples’ homes through the middle of a residential neighbourhood? Think to yourself for a minute what that entails. Not to even speak of what you would experience all day, everyday for as long as you stay at your home. And why is this being done? To stay within a “funding envelope”. Oh really? When was the last time Metrolinx (or any public institution) stayed within their funding envelope? This is absolutely shameful and something that resonates with every taxpayer. "Our homes are our castles." Doug Ford better clue into this before he pays a big political price.

4) My personal view is that this project creates more problems than it solves and should be cancelled. And this is coming from someone that has a lot to gain from a subway extension into York Region. If the City of Toronto wants to extend their subway to Steeles and add a Cummer station, then they should go ahead and do so. Oh yes, and they should pay for it, and not have York Region taxpayers foot 100% of the municipal bill as in the current scenario. York Region can take their portion of the funding and build something that their residents want and need, not the nonsense that Metrolinx is trying to impose on them.

5) Langstaff GO station already serves the proposed utopian developments that Metrolinx touts in its business plan. Most people travelling to Toronto enter the downtown core. The rest can take the GO Train to Oriole Station and walk to Leslie Subway Station and utilize the TTC to their hearts’ desire. We don’t need to spend billions of dollars to make the Yonge line even more of a mess.

6) My final point: it’s time to take a very close look at the shenanigans going on at Metrolinx. A public enquiry is the only way to get to the bottom of all of this nonsense. The backroom decision-making process needs to be exposed and justified to the people who always end up footing the bill.
 
Ranking all the "community" stations:

Clark comes first, with many highrises on the west side of Yonge, and no obstacles to adding density a bit further west along Clark. The "only 1,250 new riders" statement doesn't show the whole situation, because it discounts the riders who will be on the subway anyway but will switch to Clark Stn because it is the closest for them. The actual daily ridership will be a lot greater than 1,250.

"Cummer" is the close second, given the amount of highrises between Finch and Steeles. Although, Cummer isn't the best location. Having the choice, I'd rather move the station a bit further north, closer to Connaught / Patricia / Homewood. That would split the gap between Finch and Steeles more evenly, and thus will be more convenient for the locals. But if they prefer Cummer, because of the surface space or the launch / extraction shaft location or the 42/125 bus routes, that's fine too. The station will see decent usage counts, similar to the North York Centre station located between Sheppard and Finch.

Royal Orchard is distant third to Clark and Cummer, and isn't absolutely essential, but is a nice-to-have.

And the High Tech station - no need to rank as MX is gonna build it anyway - looks ridiculously close to RHC at the first glance, but actually makes sense if MX expects it to be very cheap.
 
Yes during rush hour there are only so many saviour trains that can be dispatched to Bloor Yonge which will only get increasingly worse when Eglinton opens and the extension afterwards.
 
KevinMxmsn said:
My two cents…

1) The TTC subway system (especially the Yonge line) is an unmitigated disaster. What should be a quick 20 minute ride from Finch to Union is almost always a hideous 40-50 minute ride from hell. As a 30+ year rider of the system, I have seen this with my own eyes. Are we going to add more people from York Region into this mess? Does anyone honestly believe that this magical new signal system with automated trains is actually going to work, let alone live up to the promises of the TTC?

2) When, exactly, is the TTC going to fix the problematic signals approaching Davisville Station?! Yes, we have been told that it is decades old technology, but can't ANYONE figure this out?! How many hundreds of millions of dollars of lost productivity can be put on this problem? In 2016, I asked the TTC's Brad Ross these exact questions. His response, 'we are replacing the whole signalling system'. Well, how is that going? How many years behind schedule is that?

3) How does anyone in a civilized, progressive society EVEN CONSIDER tunnelling under peoples’ homes through the middle of a residential neighbourhood? Think to yourself for a minute what that entails. Not to even speak of what you would experience all day, everyday for as long as you stay at your home. And why is this being done? To stay within a “funding envelope”. Oh really? When was the last time Metrolinx (or any public institution) stayed within their funding envelope? This is absolutely shameful and something that resonates with every taxpayer. "Our homes are our castles." Doug Ford better clue into this before he pays a big political price.

4) My personal view is that this project creates more problems than it solves and should be cancelled. And this is coming from someone that has a lot to gain from a subway extension into York Region. If the City of Toronto wants to extend their subway to Steeles and add a Cummer station, then they should go ahead and do so. Oh yes, and they should pay for it, and not have York Region taxpayers foot 100% of the municipal bill as in the current scenario. York Region can take their portion of the funding and build something that their residents want and need, not the nonsense that Metrolinx is trying to impose on them.

5) Langstaff GO station already serves the proposed utopian developments that Metrolinx touts in its business plan. Most people travelling to Toronto enter the downtown core. The rest can take the GO Train to Oriole Station and walk to Leslie Subway Station and utilize the TTC to their hearts’ desire. We don’t need to spend billions of dollars to make the Yonge line even more of a mess.

6) My final point: it’s time to take a very close look at the shenanigans going on at Metrolinx. A public enquiry is the only way to get to the bottom of all of this nonsense. The backroom decision-making process needs to be exposed and justified to the people who always end up footing the bill.
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1) We're building GO RER and the Ontario Line, while will easily offset many of the new trips generated by the introduction of York Regioners (people that already take the subway en masse, since many of them commute to Finch either by car or by bus).

2) The ATC extension to Eglinton should open by the end of the year I believe.

3) The tunnel will be extremely deep, far deeper than say Line 2 which does exactly that - run under people's homes. Even on Line 2 the subway vibrations are barely noticeable. At best the subway will be felt by maybe a handful of houses next to the rail corridor. For context, if built, Royal Orchard would be the deepest station on the network.

4) This is a Metrolinx project, not a TTC project. Metrolinx will own the tunnels, stations, thus will pay for the maintenance and capital costs of these sections, alongside funds from Toronto and York Region. If TYSSE is anything to go by, Toronto won't be paying for the York Region section.

5) I wrote above why Richmond Hill RER is a horrible waste of time and money, not to mention the assertions you make here about commuters is plainly untrue. Not everyone wants to go to downtown, not even close.

6) Sure.
 
KevinMxmsn said:
My two cents…

1) The TTC subway system (especially the Yonge line) is an unmitigated disaster. What should be a quick 20 minute ride from Finch to Union is almost always a hideous 40-50 minute ride from hell. As a 30+ year rider of the system, I have seen this with my own eyes. Are we going to add more people from York Region into this mess? Does anyone honestly believe that this magical new signal system with automated trains is actually going to work, let alone live up to the promises of the TTC?

2) When, exactly, is the TTC going to fix the problematic signals approaching Davisville Station?! Yes, we have been told that it is decades old technology, but can't ANYONE figure this out?! How many hundreds of millions of dollars of lost productivity can be put on this problem? In 2016, I asked the TTC's Brad Ross these exact questions. His response, 'we are replacing the whole signalling system'. Well, how is that going? How many years behind schedule is that?

3) How does anyone in a civilized, progressive society EVEN CONSIDER tunnelling under peoples’ homes through the middle of a residential neighbourhood? Think to yourself for a minute what that entails. Not to even speak of what you would experience all day, everyday for as long as you stay at your home. And why is this being done? To stay within a “funding envelope”. Oh really? When was the last time Metrolinx (or any public institution) stayed within their funding envelope? This is absolutely shameful and something that resonates with every taxpayer. "Our homes are our castles." Doug Ford better clue into this before he pays a big political price.

4) My personal view is that this project creates more problems than it solves and should be cancelled. And this is coming from someone that has a lot to gain from a subway extension into York Region. If the City of Toronto wants to extend their subway to Steeles and add a Cummer station, then they should go ahead and do so. Oh yes, and they should pay for it, and not have York Region taxpayers foot 100% of the municipal bill as in the current scenario. York Region can take their portion of the funding and build something that their residents want and need, not the nonsense that Metrolinx is trying to impose on them.

5) Langstaff GO station already serves the proposed utopian developments that Metrolinx touts in its business plan. Most people travelling to Toronto enter the downtown core. The rest can take the GO Train to Oriole Station and walk to Leslie Subway Station and utilize the TTC to their hearts’ desire. We don’t need to spend billions of dollars to make the Yonge line even more of a mess.

6) My final point: it’s time to take a very close look at the shenanigans going on at Metrolinx. A public enquiry is the only way to get to the bottom of all of this nonsense. The backroom decision-making process needs to be exposed and justified to the people who always end up footing the bill.
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The situation with the Yonge Line crowding will be (hopefully) addressed by adding the Ontario Line. Removing some of the riders transferring to Yonge line at Bloor should make the whole line run more smoothly and with fewer delays.

I agree that the "funding envelope" concept is weird in this situation. Everyone understands that Yonge North is financed by deficit (government bonds) rather than from the current tax revenue. Same applies to the Ontario Line, SSE, and Eg West. In that case, there is no reason not to borrow 10% more and do it properly, including the community stations and staying under Yonge instead of tunneling under the community.

That said, nobody will, or should, consider cancelling this project altogether.
 
Rainforest said:
Ranking all the "community" stations:

Clark comes first, with many highrises on the west side of Yonge, and no obstacles to adding density a bit further west along Clark. The "only 1,250 new riders" statement doesn't show the whole situation, because it discounts the riders who will be on the subway anyway but will switch to Clark Stn because it is the closest for them. The actual daily ridership will be a lot greater than 1,250.

"Cummer" is the close second, given the amount of highrises between Finch and Steeles. Although, Cummer isn't the best location. Having the choice, I'd rather move the station a bit further north, closer to Connaught / Patricia / Homewood. That would split the gap between Finch and Steeles more evenly, and thus will be more convenient for the locals. But if they prefer Cummer, because of the surface space or the launch / extraction shaft location or the 42/125 bus routes, that's fine too. The station will see decent usage counts, similar to the North York Centre station located between Sheppard and Finch.

Royal Orchard is distant third to Clark and Cummer, and isn't absolutely essential, but is a nice-to-have.

And the High Tech station - no need to rank as MX is gonna build it anyway - looks ridiculously close to RHC at the first glance, but actually makes sense if MX expects it to be very cheap.
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Many high rises on the west side of Yonge at Clark? there are fewer than at royal orchard
 
KevinMxmsn said:
My two cents…

1) The TTC subway system (especially the Yonge line) is an unmitigated disaster. What should be a quick 20 minute ride from Finch to Union is almost always a hideous 40-50 minute ride from hell. As a 30+ year rider of the system, I have seen this with my own eyes. Are we going to add more people from York Region into this mess? Does anyone honestly believe that this magical new signal system with automated trains is actually going to work, let alone live up to the promises of the TTC?
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You sound pessimistic. Even compared to me. It's not a "ride from hell."

Anyways, 20 minutes is exceedingly fast. That's a 50% increase over current speeds.
The route is straight, so the only way is to remove stations. I can't see any logical removals.
KevinMxmsn said:
2) When, exactly, is the TTC going to fix the problematic signals approaching Davisville Station?! Yes, we have been told that it is decades old technology, but can't ANYONE figure this out?! How many hundreds of millions of dollars of lost productivity can be put on this problem? In 2016, I asked the TTC's Brad Ross these exact questions. His response, 'we are replacing the whole signalling system'. Well, how is that going? How many years behind schedule is that?
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Others have stated the new system is coming within a few years.
KevinMxmsn said:
3) How does anyone in a civilized, progressive society EVEN CONSIDER tunnelling under peoples’ homes through the middle of a residential neighbourhood? Think to yourself for a minute what that entails. Not to even speak of what you would experience all day, everyday for as long as you stay at your home. And why is this being done? To stay within a “funding envelope”. Oh really? When was the last time Metrolinx (or any public institution) stayed within their funding envelope? This is absolutely shameful and something that resonates with every taxpayer. "Our homes are our castles." Doug Ford better clue into this before he pays a big political price.
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It's this again. How much effect does it have on the homeowners? None. I'd love to have subway access from my community. It's something people pay for. Should I rally against watermains in my neighborhood, because they might leak? No, that's stupid.
KevinMxmsn said:
4) My personal view is that this project creates more problems than it solves and should be cancelled. And this is coming from someone that has a lot to gain from a subway extension into York Region. If the City of Toronto wants to extend their subway to Steeles and add a Cummer station, then they should go ahead and do so. Oh yes, and they should pay for it, and not have York Region taxpayers foot 100% of the municipal bill as in the current scenario. York Region can take their portion of the funding and build something that their residents want and need, not the nonsense that Metrolinx is trying to impose on them.
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I found nothing about your Toronto doesn't fund thing. Source?

Right. So the Steeles station doesn't benefit YR? What does YR "want and need?" Can you give us some details, instead of your rant?
KevinMxmsn said:
5) Langstaff GO station already serves the proposed utopian developments that Metrolinx touts in its business plan. Most people travelling to Toronto enter the downtown core. The rest can take the GO Train to Oriole Station and walk to Leslie Subway Station and utilize the TTC to their hearts’ desire. We don’t need to spend billions of dollars to make the Yonge line even more of a mess.
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And others have made detailed posts about how the Richmond Hill GO isn't optimal. Try engaging with them and explain why it's better than an extension. Also, your "mess" claim doesn't have anything supporting it. Can you explain?
KevinMxmsn said:
6) My final point: it’s time to take a very close look at the shenanigans going on at Metrolinx. A public enquiry is the only way to get to the bottom of all of this nonsense. The backroom decision-making process needs to be exposed and justified to the people who always end up footing the bill.
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Again, "shenanigans" and "nonsense" don't tell us what you think is wrong. Do you want more transparency (I found the business case in like, 10 seconds). Do you want a review of elevated options? What do you want? Metrolinx runs GO. Would you support RH RER?
 
Here's my take:
-we all know the deal. We've hashed out stuff about RER and the existential principles of this extension a bazillion times
-we all knew Clark was the most likely fourth station, because every table in the IBC showed it as the best of the 3 stations
-there's nothing really new here, including that some people on Twitter (Spurr, Hains, Moore etc.) were going to poop on it
-this will happen on every announcment about the subway, over and over, until it opens (and including that)

At the end of the day, it'll all be fine.
Clark won't be the biggest, most successful station but it doesn't have to be.
If everyone wants to go 20 rounds on Twitter and whatnot, they're entitled. I'll just enjoy the show :)
 
Rainforest said:
If I am not mistaken, half of trains will short-turn at Steeles.
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Just like half the trains on Spadina Extension was suppose to short turn at Downsview now SheppardWest Station,.... how’s that working out now?
 
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