Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[steveintoronto]

However, having York Region buy in to expansion plans, should be a great motivator for the province to fund the DRL, as well as contribute to Toronto's share of any Yonge North extension. Political buy-in is the only way any subway extension will be funded and built, and York Region is key to that. I say, leverage it. York Region, you can have a subway on your side of Yonge, but you havve to join us in demanding Queen's Park provide funding for the DRL.

I beg to differ. The DRL (or "Relief Line" as it is now touted) is a *Band Aid Solution* that buys time, and doesn't address the root issue: The Yonge subway being used beyond capacity due to the *catchment area* being so much greater than what the Y-S was ever designed for. How is the "DRL" as now touted going to alleviate that in light of added load already beyond capacity? The DRL has become a *local* cause célèbre to serve the Pape entitlement, not serve the GTHA!

If the province is going to use everyone's money to address the issue of *GTHA* over-loading on the subway, then the proper solution is for the province (Metrolinx) to provide a *regional solution*. And it isn't subway, for anyone's argument! There's hardly a subway being planned in any progressive city at this point due to the abysmal yield per investment. If the DRL means so much to Tory, then he should impose a local tax on the area that benefits to pay for it.

Meantime, provincial tax-dollars should go to provincial solutions, and that's RER. Expand the DRL into an RER in tunnel route into downtown, across, and out the other side, and you have a business case, as well as an operational "through running" one. Just like sophisticated world class cities are now doing, very successfully.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Since Toronto likes to unnecessarily tunnel so much perhaps they could be done with it and just create a second Yonge Subway that's express with separate stations and all. That would be a true Yonge relief line.

 

[steveintoronto]

Since Toronto likes to unnecessarily tunnel so much perhaps they could be done with it and just create a second Yonge Subway that's express with separate stations and all. That would be a true Yonge relief line.

That's pretty much it, except that it should be standard track and loading gauge, the size of the Eglinton Crosstown. The Paris RER is less than the Crosstown tunnel cross-section and it hosts double decker coaches, and carries more passengers p/hour than any other commuter line in Europe, albeit that might be challenged when Crossrail opens.

[The Paris RER 'A' line (a two-track railway, but with more signalling) carries 55,000 passengers an hour, more than a million per weekday, and 273 million in a year.
http://www.ptua.org.au/myths1/infra.shtml
The RER C is the second longest line in the network, with over 187 km (116 mi) of route. Each day, over 531 trains run on the RER C alone, and carries over 490,000 passengers daily, which is 100,000 passengers more than the entirety of over 800 TGVs .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER_C ]

Crossrail is also slightly less cross-section than the Eglinton Crosstown, albeit curves have a lot to do with that figure. Crossrail will operate at 2.5 mins headway peak on the main core trunk.

[...]

• Crossrail will transform rail transport in London and the south east, increasing central London rail capacity by 10%, supporting regeneration and cutting journey times across the city.
• The Crossrail route will run over 100km from Reading and Heathrow in the west, through new tunnels under central London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east.
• There will be 40 Crossrail stations including 10 new stations at Paddington, Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road, Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Whitechapel, Canary Wharf, Custom House, Woolwich and Abbey Wood.
• Crossrail will bring an extra 1.5 million people to within 45 minutes of central London and will link London’s key employment, leisure and business districts – Heathrow, West End, the City, Docklands – enabling further economic development.
• The first Crossrail services through central London will start in late 2018 – an estimated 200 million annual passengers will use Crossrail.
• [...]
• Increased capacity:
  • Crossrail will increase central London’s rail capacity by 10% - the largest increase since World War 2. This will reduce congestion and allow for more comfortable journey conditions.
  • Congestion at many London Underground stations will be reduced, even for those that are not on the Crossrail route – such as Oxford Circus.
• [...]
• http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/crossrail-in-numbers

In fact, the answer isn't to twin the Yonge line, it's to build via Don Valley/into tunnel/Pape/ Eastern ave/Queen or King/ surface, then up the Georgetown Corridor, with the option of connections to Lakeshore East and West, albeit that might be a redundant need as a connection down the Don Valley to Union would remain as a direct express. The loop under Pape off the Don Valley line would be the "downtown local loop". It could initially run to University, as the DRL is projected to do, and then the next phase is to continue it west to meet the Georgetown Corridor, doing run-throughs to Bramalea or Mt. Pleasant, if/when the latter is electrified.

It's time to stop playing the subway game, and get real. When Toronto comes up with money to build subways, then the game changes. Until then, Metrolinx is going to have to facilitate the big picture with provincial budgets, and the money for rail transport is for LRT and RER, both sharing the same track, loading gauge, overhead catenary (dual mode LRTs) and platform height. This allows for much more future flexibility not only for run-throughs, but LRT sharing RER rights of way.
http://citytransport.info/Share.htm

 

[WislaHD]

I beg to differ. The DRL (or "Relief Line" as it is now touted) is a *Band Aid Solution* that buys time, and doesn't address the root issue: The Yonge subway being used beyond capacity due to the *catchment area* being so much greater than what the Y-S was ever designed for. How is the "DRL" as now touted going to alleviate that in light of added load already beyond capacity? The DRL has become a *local* cause célèbre to serve the Pape entitlement, not serve the GTHA!

I will rely on politics of the region.

The moment we build the the DRL's phase 1, the suburbs will wake up and realize that they want a piece of it too. Once suburban politics get involved, extension to Finch will follow soon after.

That will relieve Yonge at least until the later parts of this century, fingers crossed.

 

[44 North]

All this arguing wouldn't be happening if Metrolinx did not re-study the Y1 corridor and propose the Yonge North Subway Extension. Vivanext would be building the Yonge Rapidway from RHC to Finch (maybe Steeles) and be opening soon. However, this alternate scenario may have the Rapidway already at capacity when it opens and require LRT conversion soon.

I'm not saying the Yonge MUST be extended north to RHC, but that it would be wise to overbuild now and plan for the future rather than play catch up later (BRT -> LRT at capacity).

I don't think anyone would support a bus, even if it's upgradeable to tram-style LRT. Doubt it'd really work through Thornhill considering: a) area residents wouldn't want such transit blocking up the road, and b) the limited capacities brought about by roadway operation. Something akin to Crosstown would be solid though, and imo would be a good contender to a subway extn. This is probably what Cobra was talking about. In other words underground with high capacities through the central part, at/above ground elsewhere. A fully grade-separated section can have exceptional capacity, sometimes more than a subway - particularly a subway operating at 1/2 or 1/4 frequencies. If built similar to the design of Line 1 extn (i.e with stations in same locations) its ridership would probably be very good. Obviously compared 1:1 with subway extn it'd be lower on account of the transfer, but this could be improved with further extensions.

That's pretty much it, except that it should be standard track and loading gauge, the size of the Eglinton Crosstown. The Paris RER is less than the Crosstown tunnel cross-section and it hosts double decker coaches, and carries more passengers p/hour than any other commuter line in Europe, albeit that might be challenged when Crossrail opens.

In fact, the answer isn't to twin the Yonge line, it's to build via Don Valley/into tunnel/Pape/ Eastern ave/Queen or King/ surface, then up the Georgetown Corridor, with the option of connections to Lakeshore East and West, albeit that might be a redundant need as a connection down the Don Valley to Union would remain as a direct express. The loop under Pape off the Don Valley line would be the "downtown local loop". It could initially run to University, as the DRL is projected to do, and then the next phase is to continue it west to meet the Georgetown Corridor, doing run-throughs to Bramalea or Mt. Pleasant, if/when the latter is electrified.

It's time to stop playing the subway game, and get real. When Toronto comes up with money to build subways, then the game changes. Until then, Metrolinx is going to have to facilitate the big picture with provincial budgets, and the money for rail transport is for LRT and RER, both sharing the same track, loading gauge, overhead catenary (dual mode LRTs) and platform height. This allows for much more future flexibility not only for run-throughs, but LRT sharing RER rights of way.
http://citytransport.info/Share.htm

Sometimes it's hard to figure out through word descriptions what exactly this would entail, so I'd still suggest a diagram. It makes it easier to discuss. The N/S portion roughly between Yonge and Stouffville corridors is obviously important for capturing riders, and many here have proposed how to best do that (with a RL subway obviously being the best). But what are the alternatives? RH corridor diverted to Leaside Spur, existing RH, a new tunnel/guideway on Don Mills, or a standalone LRT on Don Mills with adjacent GO upgrades? With what you're describing I'm still not certain. Make a map, it can be fun.

 

[steveintoronto]

The moment we build the the DRL's phase 1, the suburbs will wake up and realize that they want a piece of it too.

Well I'd suggest since you want it to be paid for by anyone but the catchment area, of course others will want a piece of it. As to the suburbs, they pay the same tax. Do you mean the 905/519 region? Given the choice, and the impending fare integration with GO, they'll opt for RER. And being a city-dweller, I'd opt for it too. Hey, it would be just like a modern world class city, take a Regional Express across town in less than half the time of a subway. I never take the subway from Dundas West to the southern core anymore. UPX whisks me down there for a few cents more, and you can look out the window and talk to people too. Bit of a no-brainer.

With what you're describing I'm still not certain. Make a map, it can be fun.

Fair enough. I must apologize for the written description prior, I was not in the most astute state of mind at the time. What I'm touting is far from original, if I can't find a map to show it, I'll have to take my hand to Google My Maps.

 

[WislaHD]

Well I'd suggest since you want it to be paid for by anyone but the catchment area, of course others will want a piece of it. As to the suburbs, they pay the same tax. Do you mean the 905/519 region? Given the choice, and the impending fare integration with GO, they'll opt for RER. And being a city-dweller, I'd opt for it too. Hey, it would be just like a modern world class city, take a Regional Express across town in less than half the time of a subway. I never take the subway from Dundas West to the southern core anymore. UPX whisks me down there for a few cents more, and you can look out the window and talk to people too. Bit of a no-brainer.

No, I was referring to specifically North York and Scarborough, to clarify.

The Relief Line Long is as much a North York subway as it is supposedly a downtown one.

Scarborough residents on the west end who live along Eglinton, Lawrence, Ellsemere, Sheppard and Finch corridors should have an incentive for cutting their commute times by 30% by eliminating half of their bus trip.

 

[steveintoronto]

No, I was referring to specifically North York and Scarborough, to clarify.

The Relief Line Long is as much a North York subway as it is supposedly a downtown one.

Scarborough residents on the west end who live along Eglinton, Lawrence, Ellsemere, Sheppard and Finch corridors should have an incentive for cutting their commute times by 30% by eliminating half of their bus trip.

You wrote:
"The moment we build the the DRL's phase 1, the suburbs will wake up and realize that they want a piece of it too."
How hypothetical is this all getting?

Actually I was just studying

and noting the cost figures for the various options. I must caveat that I question the basis for the RER figures in this study, but that will come up again in closer analysis to this report, but assuming this report has the costs roughly right for the various options:

it seems that the option you describe (2B) is now more than twice the price of what money no-one has. Fascinating. I'm sure Queen's Park will coming running straight over with the cash for that.

44 North: After studying the various presented options, and the costs associated with what's being promoted, and the need to build a branching-off tunnel to the rail RoW to access the Greenwood Yards with the subway option, and analyzing the weakness of the business case for Option 2C, I have a truncated and much better idea of what map to draw.

I'll give it a try tomorrow. Since the DRL short requires the tunnel spur to access the Greenwood Yards, the same for an RER tunnel in lieu of subway DRL would offer an alternative route in/out of downtown (ostensibly a University and Queen terminus) to Lakeshore East, at least at rush hour, thus relieving Union Station massively and saving a huge expansion expenditure there. Perhaps every other Lakeshore train from the east could run into the downtown terminus. And every other Lakeshore West train going east through Union could be run up the Don Valley as an express run. The others would be the regular run-through East/West Lakeshore ones as is done now. Outside of peak, express would be unnecessary, and a passenger transfer would be done at a station at or near Gerrard and Pape/Carlaw.

The RER I propose would follow the projected subway route option 2B, save that once in the Don Valley, it goes north/south along the extant GO route except for the express ones, which continue south into Union. More details to come.

 

[Leo_Chan]

In my opinion, the Yonge North Subway Extension should go forward as planned/proposed, but here is an alternative.

Line 1 get extended to Steeles Ave (Cummer Station included), Viva Blue gets converted to an LRT between Major Mackenzie Dr to Steeles Ave. It is tunneled between Steeles and Bantry Ave, then surface LRT from Bantry to Major Mackenzie Dr. The benefits of this plan is that the TTC will not have to extend the Line 1 past Steeles Ave, which may be opposed by the Provincial Government and York Region, but that's another problem. It provides seamless transfer from TTC to Viva at Steeles Station as both lines/routes are underground (1 level to transfer). It does not require a lot of construction changes to the current construction of the Viva Blue Rapidway on Yonge (only some changes from Bantry Ave to Richmond Hill Centre. It also creates a little transit hub at Yonge/Major Mackenzie, which is planned to be the location of the new Richmond Hill Town Hall/Civic Centre, only if Viva Green and Viva Silver (with Viva Blue) create a small bus terminal there (goes off the street). And it has the capacity to me current ridership on Yonge north of Steeles, for the foreseeable future (~50 years, no source).

I don't know how the LRT will extend north of Major Mackenzie Dr because of the heritage area. Does anyone have any suggestions? Tunneled? Removing traffic lanes? Shared Lanes (pls no)? Widen the road anyways and kill the heritage area? I also don't know where the LRV storage and maintenance facility will be.

Here are some drawings on Google Earth I made:

Full Map:

Yonge/Steeles

Richmond Hill Centre:

Tunneled to Surface:

Yonge/Major Mackenzie

Possible Bus Terminal (end stops of Viva Green and Silver removed):

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In theory, that's a workable compromise. The question is largely how much $ you save and how much capacity you lose.

One comment on routing : a subway doesn't have the turn radius to do it but an LRT should cut much further east into Langstaff Gateway, at least close to the GO tracks, and then coming back west a bit to end at the hub by High Tech. Arguably it could even run at grade in there.

And I'm taking 44's non response as a sorry for totally misinterpreting something absurd he thought I said. Accepted. We're both magnanimous like that

EDIT: To add, where you've put the bus loop at the Major Mac end is either exactly or right beside where Richmond Hill is going to build its new Town Hall. Not sure the best way to integrate transit infrastructure there.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I will rely on politics of the region.

The moment we build the the DRL's phase 1, the suburbs will wake up and realize that they want a piece of it too. Once suburban politics get involved, extension to Finch will follow soon after.

That will relieve Yonge at least until the later parts of this century, fingers crossed.

Why do you think the Province committed $150 Million to get RL Long shovel ready as quickly as possible? They know it can be used as a vote-buying tool in upcoming elections.

Considering how terribly the Liberals are polling in Toronto, I would not be surprised if the Liberals include it in their 2018 platform. This is an immensely popular proposal across the entire city.

 

[amnesiajune]

Why do you think the Province committed $150 Million to get RL Long shovel ready as quickly as possible?

Because it's a bargaining chip with Toronto. Toronto wants to build the Relief Line but has absolutely no interest in paying for it. The provincial government will put up money for it as long as the city agrees to build (and pay its share of) the Yonge extension to Highway 7, and perhaps some other project like the Crosstown extension to the airport. John Tory's pivoting to the Relief Line is in anticipation of a provincial decision to fund the Yonge extension, which he'll obviously try to milk some other funding out of.

RE: the other comments, there's absolutely no point in discussing the subway to Steeles. It will never happen. The provincial government will never agree to fund it, and the city will never pay for it given how little money it would save them versus the status quo of buses to Finch.

 

[steveintoronto]

RE: the other comments, there's absolutely no point in discussing the subway to Steeles. It will never happen. The provincial government will never agree to fund it, and the city will never pay for it given how little money it would save them versus the status quo of buses to Finch.

On this we agree, save that I think *no* subways will be built, as reviewing their cost to benefit ratio by independent analyses will show them to be poor investments per cost. Other ways will be found to serve the save function.

But even beyond that, even if they are good yield for purpose per investment, in this political climate, who is going have the temerity to to put out a plan for the next generation that we pay for now? That kind of vision is in very short supply, and certainly not present when running an election.

Toronto has no cash, is unwilling to do what is necessary to fund the many projects it claims essential, and expects the Province and Feds to pay the way with no strings attached. Not surprisingly, those with the money have their own pressing needs, not least to also get elected. I see hope in the Investment Bank, since if there's a business case to be made, there's a very good chance that Private/Public funding will build it.

Here's why London's Crossrail, on time, on budget and the largest infrastructure project in Europe is happening. Note that it is highly unlikely that Toronto Business, let alone the Plebs, will have the impetus to learn from this:
[...]
Funding

The funding framework for Crossrail was put in place in October 2007 when the Prime Minister announced that Crossrail’s cost will be met by Government, the Mayor of London and London businesses.

Following the Comprehensive Spending Review in October 2010, a funding envelope of £14.8bn was agreed to deliver the Crossrail scheme in its entirety.

The key elements of the funding package are as follows:

The Mayor of London, through Transport for London (TfL) and the Greater London Authority (GLA), will contribute £7.1bn. This includes a direct contribution from Transport for London of £1.9bn and contributions raised through the Crossrail Business Rate Supplement (BRS), section 106 and the Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL).

Crossrail farepayers will contribute towards the debt raised during construction by TfL.

Government will contribute by means of a grant from the Department for Transport of £4.7 billion during Crossrail's construction.

London businesses will contribute £4.1bn through a variety of mechanisms, including the BRS.

Over 60% of Crossrail’s funding will come from Londoners and London businesses.

Network Rail will undertake works costing no more than £2.3bn to the existing national rail network raised through projected operating surpluses from the use of Crossrail services.

There are also considerable additional financial contributions from some key beneficiaries of Crossrail:

• The construction of Crossrail is part funded by the City of London Corporation, which has agreed to make a direct contribution of £200m and in addition will seek contributions from businesses of £150m, and has guaranteed £50m of these contributions.
• Heathrow Airport Holdings Ltd has agreed to a £70 million funding package.
• Canary Wharf Group has agreed to contribute £150m towards the costs of the new Canary Wharf Crossrail station at Canary Wharf. Canary Wharf Group will also design and build the new station.
• Berkeley Homes has agreed to construct a station box for a station at Woolwich.

The £14.8 billion funding envelope for the project is a fully inclusive cost, allowing for both contingency and expected inflation. [...]
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/about-us/funding

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto wants to build the Relief Line but has absolutely no interest in paying for it.

Mayor Tory said just six days ago that he wants Toronto to pay a $1.34 Billion share of the Relief Line costs, which would be the biggest funding commitment Toronto has ever made for a single infrastructure project.

The provincial and federal government would pay $2.68 Billion each.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Tory also said the EELRT will be funded within the SSE envelope and that ordinary citizens are totally qualified to guess how much time they think it will save, just like engineers. Then there's what he said about SmartTrack. So, I'll believe it when I see it. It's just a 2018 campaign plank. (and we'll see if $1.34b is the biggest contribution once SSE is said and done.)

The province has given $ to advance both this line and DRL. It's like a big game of poker at this point.