Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[xtremesniper]

I take it you’re referring to my posts. So...where was I proven wrong? Or “babbling without reading up first� I believe any perceived issue seemed to lie in other posters’ inability to grasp the terminology I used. Through several posts I was extremely specific about what I meant when referring to GRADE-SEPARATE light RAPID transit. Although prior to Yonge North there were plans for BRT and potential LRT conversions – which I didn’t ever deny; there was no plan for a light rapid transit YR metro system. Buses or LRVs hitting traffic lights every few hundred metres is not a Metro, or grade-separate RT.

All I'm saying is as a bystander looking into this thread, your initial posts came across as very naive and ill informed. It took quite a number of TJ's posts to (at least IMO) get you up to speed with what everyone else's knowledge of the information in this thread is about.

My point was always clear: I’m in favour of rapid transit, and I support a mode that fits the niche between in-median buses/LRVs, and ungodly expensive $500M/km heavy rail systems/extensions. A light metro has all the benefits of subways (speed, high capacity, upzoning, development, etc); but way more flexibility and enormous opportunities for cost-savings. Trenched, in-median, elevated, bored, cut/cover. In other words, infrastructure variability that is no longer realistically achievable with extensions of Toronto’s subway system. Such a system is just as good as a subway, extensions are affordable and can be interlined with other local/regional LRT lines (e.g a 407 LRT Transitway), and it’s in no way lesser transit. Another bonus is that it could’ve been built without the current delays brought about by extending another municipality’s line w/ notorious capacity issues. IMO what I find to be actual ‘lesser transit’ is the unimodal tunnel vision and continued short piecemeal suburban subway extensions that break the bank, and come at the cost of other priorities elsewhere.

I agree that LRT is in no way a "lesser" transit. I don't think anyone here is claiming that to be the case. My primary concern with Yonge in particular is what I've already stated before, which is that it has a long and proven track record of growth and intensification, and is often the center of focus regarding long-term future growth in addition to current trends.

And I agree with your other point that this is Yonge Street, and it’s naturally deserving of something better than lowrate BRT (or BRT->LRT conversion). That’s why it’s a bit confounding that prior to 2007 there were no plans by YR to build rapid transit of their own (real, grade-separated RAPID transit). But somehow after a Prov election there was an immediate necessity for high-frequency 6-car heavy rail underground subways – with obscenely large estimates of ~20,000 peak hour ridership.

I was involved in those consultations with the public when they made the switch from BRT/future LRT to subway, and I recall it was for a number of reasons. Firstly, a very loud group of locals who insisted that if we're going to tear up historic stretches of Yonge, we may as well do it "the right way" and build something that will stand the test of time. There were major concerns over how to protect stretches of Yonge that have historical significance. In addition to that, there was a re-evaluation of the growth patterns in the area. I believe this is around the same time as when Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill all came forward with intensification plans that dramatically changed the previous traffic estimates.

Re: your point about transferring at Finch. That’s a valid PITA for anyone. But the Prov has come to the realization (as they have a few times over the decades) that improved commuter rail is the best option for medium/long-haul transit users who otherwise rely on local-service rapid transit. We’re doing it with SmartTrack, we’ll soon be doing it with Lakeshore E + W, and with or without Yonge North we’ll be doing it with the Richmond Hill line. An improved RH line with a shorter and faster route is very likely to be shortlisted in the Relief studies. Such a line would more or less solve the PITA transfer at Finch (not to mention slash the ridership projections of a subway on Yonge).

The thing is that TJ and others in this thread have been saying over and over again is that people keep making this false assumption that everyone who goes to Finch Station is trying to get to Union (or anywhere south of Bloor). This is simply not the case. This Union-centric view of rail systems people seem to have is not justified. I personally know of many, many people who take the subway instead of the GO simply because they want to get to places in "uptown" Toronto, like anywhere between North York Centre and Eglinton. An improved Richmond Hill line is not going to help as much as you'd think it will, and I think it's generally unpleasant to always come back to this topic to remind people that people outside of Toronto don't see the Steeles "border" as a border, and might live on one side of it and work on the other -- nowhere near downtown.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I was thinking the sound of crickets might be best reply to 44's latest. It's just foolishness, not least because, as previously stated and as the facts show, the ship has sailed. Toronto, Vaughan, Markham and Richmond Hill are ALL planning and are updating or have updated their secondary plans based on the SUBWAY. Obviously LRT is a perfectly good form of rapid transit and obviously it also leads to intensification but you should be able to admit that, equally obviously, it leads to LESS intensification than a subway.

(And, just to complete the set: you've seen the renderings of Markham and Vaughan's plans for Yonge as well as the Markham and RH plans for the growth centre. This is Toronto's secondary plan for Yonge which, you will note, anticipates SUBWAY stations and sets densities accordingly.

)

In regards to what xtremesniper just said, I actually happen to live a) north of Steeles b) south of 7 and c) commute to midtown. I'm not the only person in this situation by a longshot. RER wouldn't help me any more than if Air Canada added more flights to Timbuktu.

If your idea of WATERING DOWN a transit system is connecting it to a hub where 5 other forms of transit converge, you're just hopeless. It's also entirely counter-intuitive given that Toronto's main concern is about ridership OVERWHELMING the system.

The border is meaningless EXCEPT in terms of operating funding and how TTC is funded can change and most certainly should if they are asked to serve areas beyond 416 and it most certainly will. If we were magically transported back in time, would you argue that taking the TORONTO Transit Commission into North York and Scarborough was WATERING IT DOWN or would you recognize how obviously absurd that is? The entire reason Metro existed was to put that kind of narrow thinking to rest and realize that OBVIOUSLY what goes on in North York is related to what goes in Toronto and that extending "Toronto's" transit system up there was fundamental to its growing appropriately, and especially on Yonge Street. So what people like you need to do is redraw your mental map and realize we need something similar today because now it's Thornhill and Richmond Hill and Mississauga that OBVIOUSLY have a common economic/strategic interest with (amalgamated) Toronto. Metrolinx is a start but it's got aways to go, clearly.

The fact that the TTC has been "owned and operated" by Toronto for a century (or whatever) is a total red herring. All you're proving is how obsolete its structure is. It's precisely because of these sorts of legacies that "world class" cities like New York amalgamate transit. (One might also point out that York Region similarly realized growing their ridership meant they needed to amalgamate local services into a single system. I suspect you'd have fought this, arguing that allowing Markham buses to cross Yonge into Vaughan was WATERING DOWN the system.)

All York Region (or Metrolinx) would have to do is give it some sort of operating subsidy (or even better, totally overhaul the way fares work in the GTA, a process that is most assuredly underway) and the entire foundation of your argument is shot to pieces. You're living in the past, in short and that's why you keep missing the boat. Or costly, heavy rail train, rather.

 

[wopchop]

The thing is that TJ and others in this thread have been saying over and over again is that people keep making this false assumption that everyone who goes to Finch Station is trying to get to Union (or anywhere south of Bloor). This is simply not the case. This Union-centric view of rail systems people seem to have is not justified. I personally know of many, many people who take the subway instead of the GO simply because they want to get to places in "uptown" Toronto, like anywhere between North York Centre and Eglinton. An improved Richmond Hill line is not going to help as much as you'd think it will, and I think it's generally unpleasant to always come back to this topic to remind people that people outside of Toronto don't see the Steeles "border" as a border, and might live on one side of it and work on the other -- nowhere near downtown.

Indeed. And this is something that transit advocates on this site are always getting tunnel vision about. The majority of commuters are NOT going downtown.

There was recently an article in The Star with some interesting figures regarding this, based on a UofT study. For instance, apparently only 50% of all transit commuters, and 13% of all commuters, are actually heading downtown. Also interesting is that 85% of all transit trips, and 45% of all commuter trips in the GTHA are bound for somewhere in the 416.

While it is certainly a great idea to build an RER system that will serve the downtown core (and the routes themselves), there are also two large segments of the population (35% of total transit commuters and 32% of all auto commuters) that want to go to Toronto but such a system will not necessarily service. In many cases it might, but it is something to think about.

Anyway, I'm not knocking turning the Richmond Hill Line into a GO line that will provide excellent service to Union Station from Langstaff, but we should definitely be interested in creating great connections and great transit opportunities for the huge proportion of the GTHA that are not going downtown. To me, providing seamless connection between TTC subway network, YRT Viva Network, GO train Network, and future 407 Transitway network, is the way to do that.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

One last thing for 44North to consider:

People who say, "LRT! LRT! LRT!" are no better than people who (you know, hypothetically) say, "Subways! Subways! Subways!"

The key to a successful network is looking at each corridor and determining the optimal mode, based on many factors. Obviously these include current and planned density, importance in connecting to other transit (both local and regional) etc. etc. The key is the CONTEXT and you resolutely refuse to accept, understand or work within the context we have all outlined that makes this particular corridor suited to a subway; and not a new one, but an extension of one next door.

This regard for context is precisely what did NOT take place in Scarborough. In some places BRT is ideal (and there's a lesson there for Toronto) and others LRT and, in some unique places, subway.

For the myriad reasons cited on page after page after page here, subway makes sense on this stretch. You haven't said anything that proves otherwise, just railed on with equivocations and generic arguments about what LRT can do. If you're not going to extend the YONGE subway up to an established mobility hub, you're basically saying there is no point building any subway anywhere in the GTA ever again.
At some point you're just going to have to accept it's time to agree to disagree.

 

[Edward]

Thanks for those plans for Yonge north of Finch. I had never seen them before. Will the ring roads be extended to Steeles?

 

[Conrad Black]

Doesn't look like it.

 

[BMO]

Thanks for those plans for Yonge north of Finch. I had never seen them before. Will the ring roads be extended to Steeles?

You can just use Willowdale or Hilda/Talbot as an extension of those ring roads, although both of those are fairly congested, unlike the ring roads

 

[WislaHD]

Well truth is, there is much more development potential on both sides of Steeles with the Yonge North extension than there is in perhaps all of Scarborough.

 

[drum118]

Well truth is, there is much more development potential on both sides of Steeles with the Yonge North extension than there is in perhaps all of Scarborough.

You only got 3 blocks north of Steeles to CN tracks for development, with World on Yonge done now.

You got more south of Steeles than North of it to justify a subway in the first place. Mistake was made not taking the line to Steeles when the extension tool place in the first place.

You already lost a station between Steeles and RHC due to low ridership. Other than RHC, no real ridership numbers for stations in the first place.

You only got 16th Ave, Major Mack and Richmond Hill for station north of RHC.

As noted, as well my view, "not everyone is going all the way to Downtown Toronto", but the only route to get you to it if you wanted too or close to it. Once the REX, DRL and Smart Track in place, ridership will be poor like on opening day for any extension north of Steeles.

More important, you will need a 2nd Yonge Line south of Steeles to fit all those new riders showing up by 2040-50 that live on Yonge St in the first place. They will be generated by all the development underway, on the books or thought of north of the 401, let alone south of it. You can't get a seat today at peak time and it will be the same way once the ATO is in place, including the 7th car.

 

[nfitz]

You already lost a station between Steeles and RHC due to low ridership. Other than RHC, no real ridership numbers for stations in the first place.

The 2013 Benefits Case for the Yonge North Subway suggests otherwise.

Looking at Figure 4.1 (which is unfortunately a graphic), if you scale off the figure, the southbound boardings for the 2031 AM Peak Hour if the subway is extended to Richmond Hill are:

Richmond Hill - 10,200
Langstaff - 3,800
Royal Orchard - 800
Clark - 4,000
Steeles - 1,900
Cummer - 800
Finch - 4,900

Had the subway only gone to Steeles, they forecast that would be 14,700 boarding at Steeles in the peak hour.

So Langstaff and Clark also have significant ridership, and much more than Steeles! On a daily basis this equates to over 25,000 for Clark and Langstaff, in the range of stations like Pape, Main Street, Osgoode, Wilson, and Yorkdale.

One can see why Old Orchard was dropped - though Cummer isn't much better - but perhaps has better intensification options. One can also see that LRT isn't an option, with over 18,000/hour southbound arriving at Steeles.

The 2031 ridership southbound at Finch is scary, over 25,000/hour.

More important, you will need a 2nd Yonge Line south of Steeles to fit all those new riders showing up by 2040-50 that live on Yonge St in the first place. They will be generated by all the development underway, on the books or thought of north of the 401, let alone south of it. You can't get a seat today at peak time and it will be the same way once the ATO is in place, including the 7th car.

With these kind of numbers, you might need that 2nd Yonge Line the day the extension opens!

 

[WislaHD]

Jeez. With the Crosstown and SELRT also opening, Yonge Southbound at AM peak looks outright scary.

 

[gweed123]

One can see why Old Orchard was dropped - though Cummer isn't much better - but perhaps has better intensification options.

That's what I suspect. When you look at the area around New Orchard, the redevelopment opportunities are relatively limited. Cummer on the other hand has the opportunity to extend the Yonge St "Canyon" further north.

Jeez. With the Crosstown and SELRT also opening, Yonge Southbound at AM peak looks outright scary.

The history of Toronto transit planning in one sentence: "This project will help relieve congestion on the Yonge corridor."

 

[drum118]

The 2013 Benefits Case for the Yonge North Subway suggests otherwise.

Looking at Figure 4.1 (which is unfortunately a graphic), if you scale off the figure, the southbound boardings for the 2031 AM Peak Hour if the subway is extended to Richmond Hill are:

Richmond Hill - 10,200
Langstaff - 3,800
Royal Orchard - 800
Clark - 4,000
Steeles - 1,900
Cummer - 800
Finch - 4,900

Had the subway only gone to Steeles, they forecast that would be 14,700 boarding at Steeles in the peak hour.

So Langstaff and Clark also have significant ridership, and much more than Steeles! On a daily basis this equates to over 25,000 for Clark and Langstaff, in the range of stations like Pape, Main Street, Osgoode, Wilson, and Yorkdale.

One can see why Old Orchard was dropped - though Cummer isn't much better - but perhaps has better intensification options. One can also see that LRT isn't an option, with over 18,000/hour southbound arriving at Steeles.

The 2031 ridership southbound at Finch is scary, over 25,000/hour.

With these kind of numbers, you might need that 2nd Yonge Line the day the extension opens!

To get to RHC numbers, Need a huge parking lot and a real beef up transit system. The best I could come up going out on the limb, was 8,100 by 2035. VIVA Blue wasn't even doing 1,000 at peak time when I did my numbers. It would have to increase 15% yearly to get close to a good number.

Finch would see a drop in Ridership number as those riders would be parking in York and would help the line number.

Royal Orchard was supposed to have been removed from the plan now due to low numbers.

If plan development take place for Cummer, that number will be way higher than call for. Think along North York Centre line. Same for Steeles and you need to factor in all the buses not going to Finch like they do today. Clark too high.

Yes you need to think of an express line as the 2nd Yonge line on opening day that will service haft the current station as well following another route south of Eglinton to Queens Quay. You can run a 3 track line for the 2nd line or 4 tracks.

The issue I have today, there is no space south of Eglinton, let alone Sheppard by 2031 and that is too late.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

That's what I suspect. When you look at the area around New Orchard, the redevelopment opportunities are relatively limited. Cummer on the other hand has the opportunity to extend the Yonge St "Canyon" further north.



The history of Toronto transit planning in one sentence: "This project will help relieve congestion on the Yonge corridor."

You forgot the second part:
"...therefore, let's not do this project and maybe try something else instead, eventually."

To get to RHC numbers, Need a huge parking lot and a real beef up transit system. The best I could come up going out on the limb, was 8,100 by 2035. VIVA Blue wasn't even doing 1,000 at peak time when I did my numbers. It would have to increase 15% yearly to get close to a good number.

You don't need any of that. The fact you think a big parking lot is needed to beef up transit shows how limited your thinking on this is. What you need is BIG DEVELOPMENT and there will be.

(And the big parking lot won't be at RHC, it will be at Longbridge.)

Royal Orchard was supposed to have been removed from the plan now due to low numbers.

It's been removed, as Nfitz said. It's not in the plan. (FWIW, I think Cummer is so close to Finch as to be pointless but I understand TO wants a little bang for the buck if this thing gets built, so why not?)

If plan development take place for Cummer, that number will be way higher than call for. Think along North York Centre line. Same for Steeles and you need to factor in all the buses not going to Finch like they do today. Clark too high.

you say two contradictory things: a lot of the YRT buses now going to Finch will, as you say, not go there anymore. Where will they go? How about Clark?! (Not all of them, obviously.) That's why Clark isn't too high.

Yes you need to think of an express line as the 2nd Yonge line on opening day that will service haft the current station as well following another route south of Eglinton to Queens Quay. You can run a 3 track line for the 2nd line or 4 tracks.

Yes, it would be nice. And it's never going to happen; never in our lifetimes, anyway. Too expensive, too hard to build = pure fantasy. There's a better chance we'll see flying cars first.

 

[Rainforest]

The 2013 Benefits Case for the Yonge North Subway suggests otherwise.

Looking at Figure 4.1 (which is unfortunately a graphic), if you scale off the figure, the southbound boardings for the 2031 AM Peak Hour if the subway is extended to Richmond Hill are:

Richmond Hill - 10,200
Langstaff - 3,800
Royal Orchard - 800
Clark - 4,000
Steeles - 1,900
Cummer - 800
Finch - 4,900

Their forecast for Steeles is a bit suspicious, if we compare it to Clark and to Finch.

I can understand Steeles having less than Finch, perhaps 80% or 70% of Finch since the Steeles W and E bus routes are not as busy as Finch W and E. But only 40% of Finch sounds too low.

And how Clark can have 2 times more than Steeles, is anyone's guess. Clark is a short street that has bus service west of Yonge only; and that single bus route is way less busy than Steeles W or E buses.