Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If I remember correctly TTC endorsed the Sheppard Subway back in the 90s. I have to wonder if these guys legitimately thought this was a successful route or if they were just playing political games. Surely the engineers at the TTC could have foreseen what a disaster this would have been.

Ten times as much!? Wow. They were expecting another downtown core to pop up in Scarborough (insanity). And wasn't this during a recession as well (further insanity)? Of course I have the benefit of hindsight.

There was a recession in the early 90's and by the time it ended gas was dirt cheap and no one was intrested in transit spending. Also commerical taxes were high. If built in the 90's or early 2000's sheppard would have been completed and we would be stuck with it.

 

[Solid Snake]

I don't HATE the Scarborough plan but I think an LRT was more sensible and even if the subway makes more sense, every aspect of the process was corrupted by petty politics. More development along the streetscape (i.e. LRT) makes more sense than trying to stimulate the very localized intensification that hasn't happened with decades of planning to that effect. The bigger problem isn't the subway itself as much as the process and then also the idea that it queue-jumped the DRL and Yonge extension, both of which are more important.

Yes politics explained the flip flop on Scarborough. But what have we learned? That city council out of hate towards Rob Ford killed their own Scarborough LRT who was merged with the Crosstown when they killed the eastern Crosstown being 100% underground...just because it came from Ford.

If it wasn't for that, it would have been LRT.

That being said, the subway has it's merits for 2 reasons

1-The subways will have 5 millions extra passensers than the LRT which means that people who used to drive to work will likely use the subway instead
2-This one is crucial. Even pro LRT councillors recognized that throwing Scarborough riders on overcrowded shuttle buses and have Scarborough become a gridlock nightmare for 5 years was beyond extreme.

Under those circumstances, the subway made sense

 

[Dan416]

If I had to guess, I'd assume they would have based their ridership predictions based on the full route and not the stubway that we got. The fact that Sheppard was never finished isn't the fault of the TTC or the planners back in the day; it's the Conservatives' fault, and no one else's.

 

[salsa]

With sheppard being a stub. Are we sure we can't turn the subway trains south at don mills and sheppard?

You can't simply turn a train 90 degrees to go south. It takes hundreds of metres of curvy tunnels under a bunch of high rise buildings to do that. Plus you would have to retrofit the existing sheppard subway stations to accommodate 6-car trains. It also doesn't help that the Don Mills platform is located on the east side of Don Mills road, and that the planned sheppard LRT is supposed to share the subway platform as well. It's simply not worth spending tons of money on this, even if it's somehow possible.

they based their ridership numbers based on unrealistic job growth numbers at NYCC and STC from the planning department. They were expecting NYCC to have roughly triple the space it currently has and STC to have around ten times as much IIRC.

This is why we should never build subways based on assumptions that massive future development will make it pay off. In this case the projected growth failed to materialize, so we are stuck with running empty trains on this truncated money pit. And meanwhile, the Yonge line is going to implode by the time people shut up with their suburban subway fixations.

 

[Solid Snake]

I really don't understand this obsession people have with the Sheppard Subway.

And I don't understand this obsession at building subways beyond city limits to have the lines end in the middle of nowhere in either an empty field or next to commercial boxes while:

A-Isn't this just recreating what the anti Sheppard and STC subway critics have been complaining about? Some will say, "the studies says the ridership is there" but what if
B-Vaughan extension could have been an LRT to Steeles. So LRT for North York and Scarborough=Good/// LRT for York region is blashphemy and we want "Subways, Subways, Subways". It's stuff like that that frustrates people living in Scarborough and North York

C-I get the Richmond Hill Subway but with the GO so close to it, improving the GO could have easily fixed that and those billions could have been redirected towards improving that line. Instead, once that subway line opens, who will want to pay more to take the GO while the subway will be less expensive and more frequent??? That GO line will be another example of wasted money.

Improvements the line would have needed:

1-Lakeshore service level with electric trains for faster travel time
2-Add stops at Sheppard/Leslie (Move Oriole GO station), Eglinton Crosstown GO station and a Bloor-Danforth line GO station

 

[Transportfan]

When I saw this thread back up top again just after the TBM's from the Spadina extension being available for use after the tunnelling completion I thought the discussion was going to be about the TTC proposing using them to pre-bore the Yonge extension tunnels.

 

[Solid Snake]

This is why we should never build subways based on assumptions that massive future development will make it pay off. In this case the projected growth failed to materialize, so we are stuck with running empty trains on this truncated money pit.

Like York Region's plan

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Like York Region's plan

The bus routes along Yonge, north of Finch alone justify a subway extension. The added development is just a bonus (albeit a significant one). This is not true of the Sheppard corridor.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If I had to guess, I'd assume they would have based their ridership predictions based on the full route and not the stubway that we got. The fact that Sheppard was never finished isn't the fault of the TTC or the planners back in the day; it's the Conservatives' fault, and no one else's.

IIRC the 15,000 pphpd prediction was with the Yonge to Don Mills route.

 

[salsa]

Like York Region's plan

What about it. You mean the Vaughan extension? I don't agree with it too much either, but it doesn't mean we should now extend Sheppard as well just because Vaughan is getting a subway. One bad decision doesn't justify another.

 

[Solid Snake]

then why Vaughan is being built then. It came after Sheppard after all. I persist to say that there were other solutions for Richmond Hill

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And I don't understand this obsession at building subways beyond city limits to have the lines end in the middle of nowhere in either an empty field or next to commercial boxes while:

A-Isn't this just recreating what the anti Sheppard and STC subway critics have been complaining about? Some will say, "the studies says the ridership is there" but what if
B-Vaughan extension could have been an LRT to Steeles. So LRT for North York and Scarborough=Good/// LRT for York region is blashphemy and we want "Subways, Subways, Subways". It's stuff like that that frustrates people living in Scarborough and North York

The Vaughan extension north of Finch was idiotic. Like Sheppard, it should have never been built. But politics.

The Yonge extension is absolutely needed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

then why Vaughan is being built then. It came after Sheppard after all. I persist to say that there were other solutions for Richmond Hill

Like Sheppard, it's because of politics. Neither should have been built. I'm really hoping that Sheppard and Vaughan haven't set up a precedent for wasting billion on underused subways.

 

[Solid Snake]

IIRC the 15,000 pphpd prediction was with the Yonge to Don Mills route.

I'd actually would like to read that report. Why on earth is the TTC stubbornly keep on operating the Sheppard line until 2am every night? It closes later that the Yonge line. Why not imitate Montreal's Blue line who used to close at 11h15am when the ridership was low and run the trains every 10 minutes?

 

[Solid Snake]

Like Sheppard, it's because of politics. Neither should have been built. I'm really hoping that Sheppard and Vaughan haven't set up a precedent for wasting billion on underused subways.

I think Sheppard West has merits because of:

A-Even if you wanted to build an LRT, Sheppard Avenue West is way too narrow from Yonge st. to at least Bathurst street. It would have to be underground
B-By connecting the line to the Spadina line you could
1)Use the Wilson Yard more efficiently
2)Create a Sheppard Branch which would most likely boost the line's ridership as it is done in many cities around the world

I think Sheppard East has merits to at least Victoria Park. Agincourt makes sense as a terminal station with the GO train and reevalutae beyond that point.