Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[denfromoakvillemilton]

...and Vaughan, Markham, and Richmond Hill would be partially paying for both extensions.

And to be honest, that's all they'll contribute.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Man...I feel like myself and others have answered this 50X on this thread but I'll try one more time to provide the obvious responses you missed.

First, and most superficially, the reason there is almost no difference right now is because most of the riders are coming from up north anyway. So, by building the subway you are taking thousands of cars and hundreds of buses per hour off of Yonge Street. Given the infrastructure, traffic and GHG impacts, that alone justifies the extension for me. to argue otherwise is to argue that there is no advantage to bringing transit closer to where its riders actually live.

I'll also add that this substantiates, for the umpteenth time, that the system will NOT be immediately overburdened if it is built before the DRL. Given that the EA is done, it is ridiculous that York Region should have to wait years for Toronto to go through the whole process of building and planning the DRL. The system can handle the minimal impacts for the few years between when Yonge and DRL are built, assuming there is an actual transit/revenue plan in place for the GTA. I guess we'll know that soon enough.

Secondly, everyone talks about ridership and capacity and totally ignores the relationship between transit and land use. The question is, "Why would we spend billions of dollars building a subway to Richmond Hill to carry no more total riders on the network than we do without it?" and the answer is that the subway terminal is a planned transit node that will house 50,000 people and 30,000 jobs. Without the subway you'll be lucky to get half of that and all the people who are still coming to Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughan will go live in sprawling subdivisions etc. THAT is why you would spend billions: to stop unsustainable development in the suburbs. It seems obvious to me but it keeps coming up here every 10 pages or so.

Ignoring the connection between land use planning and high-order transit is how you get dumb plans like the Scarborough subway (which will probably do more to overload Bloor-Yonge in the short term than this extension would).

The idea that there is no business case by 2031 strikes me as absurd. The ridership is already there, they're just driving to Finch or crowding onto buses. you could maybe make an argument for LRT (not a good one, but you could make one) but BRT on Yonge up to Highway 7? That's just absurd. I'm not going to go look up the numbers now but the number of buses that cross the Yonge/Steeles border now every day is literally over 100 per hour. Thinking that moving those buses faster is a solution is just nonsensical.

Also for the 50th time, the GO line only goes to Union Station. It doesn't help people get from Thornhill to Eglinton or St. Clair or Sheppard or, indeed, anywhere else whatsoever in the GTA. What we're trying to do is build an actual, interconnected transit network and intensify development in the suburbs. Expanding GO but not the subway is just encouraging more people to live out in the sprawl and haul into downtown every day. I don't see the future in that, personally.

I completely agree with you except on the Scarborough subway point. Scarborough subway is planned to get just as much ridership than this extension, and they are also expected to update zoning to try an encourage growth at STC. Both lines make sense.

Anyone opposed to this expansion needs to go at look at Yonge & steeles at 7:30 in the morning. Insanity. Buses fly by, with 4 or 5 buses crossing steeles with every light cycle, and even more TTC buses coming from Steeles turning onto Yonge. after seeing that, go down into Finch station, and watch the constant flow of hundreds of people come down from the YRT/GO bus terminal, and then watch the same thing happen from the TTC bus terminal. Stand on platform level, and watch how every single subway car leaving the station is standing room only. This extension is needed, no doubt about it.

The problem of course is overloading the lower portions of the line, specifically screwing with Bloor-Yonge. The DRL is needed for this to work, but this is also badly needed. suggesting LRT is silly, it would be at near capacity on opening day and the extra transfer would be stupid.


The ridership figures on this, the DRL, and the Scarborough extension are actually quite similar. All three make sense, and all three are needed. It just so happens that they cost $14 billion when all put together.

 

[andrewpmk]

I'm not saying that the Yonge subway extension isn't needed, though obviously the south of Steeles part will be the busiest, I think Highway 7 and Yonge will basically be a bus transfer point and won't have much redevelopment. But the Sheppard subway extension definitely is needed because there is a lot of development there and to relieve the 401. The McCowan subway is pointless because only 1 of the stations has any development around it, rebuilding the SRT is perfectly adequate. If there were a subway on Don Mills and a Sheppard extension then most passengers would use the Don Mills subway then the Sheppard subway to get from downtown to STC, thus cannibalizing the SRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why should we justify a subway to Yonge and Highway 7 based on hypothetical redevelopment at Highway 7 in an area that is currently big box stores, while claiming that no subway is needed on Sheppard based on claims that there will be no development? I am pretty sure there is more actual development at the eastern end of the Sheppard subway extension than there is at the giant big box development at Yonge and Highway 7. Somehow I think that the high voltage power lines at Yonge and Highway 7 make that area hard to redevelop. There is no way there will ever be 30000 jobs there but simultaneously there will be 0 square feet of new office space along Yonge between 401 and Finch, a much more desirable area.

I'm not saying that the Yonge subway extension isn't needed, though obviously the south of Steeles part will be the busiest, I think Highway 7 and Yonge will basically be a bus transfer point and won't have much redevelopment. But the Sheppard subway extension definitely is needed because there is a lot of development there and to relieve the 401. The McCowan subway is pointless because only 1 of the stations has any development around it, rebuilding the SRT is perfectly adequate. If there were a subway on Don Mills and a Sheppard extension then most passengers would use the Don Mills subway then the Sheppard subway to get from downtown to STC, thus cannibalizing the SRT.

But the DB line gets closer to downtown. Sheppard takes you to NYCC.

 

[andrewpmk]

But the DB line gets closer to downtown. Sheppard takes you to NYCC.

Yonge-Bloor is not exactly the part of downtown where most people work. Almost all new office space downtown is near Union Station. There hasn't been any new office space built at Yonge & Bloor since the early 1990s, just luxury condos. There is more office space under construction at North York Centre than Yonge & Bloor, yes there is only 1 building under construction at Yonge & Sheppard (and another proposed near Yonge & York Mills) right now but it is not zero. Most people coming from Scarborough going downtown will have to transfer to the Yonge line or the future Don Mills line or take Stouffville or Lakeshore East GO to get to Union Station anyway. At least with the Sheppard subway you are going through more densely populated areas than the McCowan Road line. Almost all new condo development in Scarborough is along the 401, so that is where a subway should go.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yonge-Bloor is not exactly the part of downtown where most people work. Almost all new office space downtown is near Union Station. There hasn't been any new office space built at Yonge & Bloor since the early 1990s, just luxury condos. There is more office space under construction at North York Centre than Yonge & Bloor, yes there is only 1 building under construction at Yonge & Sheppard (and another proposed near Yonge & York Mills) right now but it is not zero. Most people coming from Scarborough going downtown will have to transfer to the Yonge line or the future Don Mills line or take Stouffville or Lakeshore East GO to get to Union Station anyway. At least with the Sheppard subway you are going through more densely populated areas than the McCowan Road line. Almost all new condo development in Scarborough is along the 401, so that is where a subway should go.

Or the DRL, which will keep them off the yonge line completely. If the BD goes on McCowan then yes you are right, but we will see the alignment soon. Sheppard has low ridership now, and I don't think that will change with an extension to STC, which would not help East Scarborough.

 

[andrewpmk]

I am assuming an extension of the Don Mills subway line to Finch & Don Mills (this is the same thing as the DRL). Suppose many people take the Sheppard subway west from STC to Don Mills & Sheppard then the Don Mills subway south to downtown. Of course there would be many bus routes at STC just as there are today. The McCowan subway is pointless because there is nothing there south of Ellesmere except single family houses and a small hospital. I think that the SRT and Bloor-Danforth line are heavily used today only because there is no alternative way from STC to downtown, even though there is not much density along that route. There is much more density along the current #25 bus route and the current #190 bus route.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I completely agree with you except on the Scarborough subway point. Scarborough subway is planned to get just as much ridership than this extension, and they are also expected to update zoning to try an encourage growth at STC. Both lines make sense.
...
The ridership figures on this, the DRL, and the Scarborough extension are actually quite similar. All three make sense, and all three are needed. It just so happens that they cost $14 billion when all put together.

I don't HATE the Scarborough plan but I think an LRT was more sensible and even if the subway makes more sense, every aspect of the process was corrupted by petty politics. More development along the streetscape (i.e. LRT) makes more sense than trying to stimulate the very localized intensification that hasn't happened with decades of planning to that effect. The bigger problem isn't the subway itself as much as the process and then also the idea that it queue-jumped the DRL and Yonge extension, both of which are more important.

One of the great ongoing jokes on this thread is the clash between people who think it will overwhelm the system on Day One and people who think it's going to nowhere and therefore will be a drain on the system. Can't have it both ways. It will be a stress on Yonge-Bloor, no doubt. But if the ATO comes online, and the Spadina line, and the bigger trains, it should be good enough as long as the DRL is planned to come online not too long after (i.e. before all the new development).

Why should we justify a subway to Yonge and Highway 7 based on hypothetical redevelopment at Highway 7 in an area that is currently big box stores, while claiming that no subway is needed on Sheppard based on claims that there will be no development? I

Hypothetical? You mean like this nearly-complete development at Yonge/Steeles?
http://www.libertydevelopment.ca/worldonyonge/

The zoning is in place. The developers worked on and agreed to the plan. The only "hypothetical" element is the subway (and, yes, other transit infrastructure like the transitway and expanded GO). If they announce it tomorrow, the sales offices will be open before New Year's. Obviously Metrus isn't going to give up it's golden leases on the north side of Highway 7 before that but the Markham half is totally ready to go. As for the hydro corridor...well, if you don't know what the development plans are for the node itself, plus the new zoning along Steeles (in Vaughan and Markham) look back on this thread.

I'm not saying that the Yonge subway extension isn't needed, though obviously the south of Steeles part will be the busiest, I think Highway 7 and Yonge will basically be a bus transfer point and won't have much redevelopment.

I don't think that's obvious at all. When's the last time you were at Yonge and Steeles? There is already more development on the Markham side than Toronto. Markham and Vaughan have updated, high-density secondary plans for Yonge Street now in place. Toronto hasn't even started such a process as far as I know. The Highway 7 area has been a designated node for several years and those plans, as I just said, are also in place. Developers don't decide to build transit-oriented development on Yonge Street on a lark. It will happen as surely as North York Centre did. But, as I've also said before, I'm sure there were people, circa 1970, who didn't want the subway to up to Finch based on "hypothetical development" in the middle of nowhere.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The key is not to have to rely on development to make a subway viable. it has to be considered a nice side effect. If you rely on that type of transit planning, you end up with the likes of the Sheppard subway. This line makes sense today, opening day will see numbers above 10,000PPHD, and therefore should be built. Sheppard, if you were to build out the entire line, would be lucky to hit 6,000. That isn't how you build transit. You also don't cheap out and build the cheapest option. Like with Scarborough, an LRT might "work" here, but it isn't necessarily the best option.

and Andrew, the Sheppard subway doesn't make sense no matter how you put it. The line runs between two areas already served by transit and runs through an area that doesn't have the demand for transit. It connects no major bus routes (the buses passing sheppard aren't nearly that full at that point in the line, they only get busy further south) and has no major destinations other than STC and NYCC along it. no schools, no hospitals, nothing. its runs through industrial parks and suburban strip malls. The two major ridership points on it, NYCC and STC, are already served by more convenient transit services that attract much more ridership. The Yonge line extension meanwhile runs along the busiest bus corridor in the city, connects to one of the largest bus only terminals in the city (Square one is the only other terminal with no connections other than buses that is comparable), intersects several major bus routes, has destinations along it, and therefore has the ridership. Sheppard simply doesn't make sense. the vast majority of subway ridership (especially in the suburbs) comes from people who do not walk to the station, and that is Sheppards weakest point. Never mind the fact that the line doesn't really go anywhere important.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't HATE the Scarborough plan but I think an LRT was more sensible and even if the subway makes more sense, every aspect of the process was corrupted by petty politics. More development along the streetscape (i.e. LRT) makes more sense than trying to stimulate the very localized intensification that hasn't happened with decades of planning to that effect. The bigger problem isn't the subway itself as much as the process and then also the idea that it queue-jumped the DRL and Yonge extension, both of which are more important.

One of the great ongoing jokes on this thread is the clash between people who think it will overwhelm the system on Day One and people who think it's going to nowhere and therefore will be a drain on the system. Can't have it both ways. It will be a stress on Yonge-Bloor, no doubt. But if the ATO comes online, and the Spadina line, and the bigger trains, it should be good enough as long as the DRL is planned to come online not too long after (i.e. before all the new development).



Hypothetical? You mean like this nearly-complete development at Yonge/Steeles?
http://www.libertydevelopment.ca/worldonyonge/

The zoning is in place. The developers worked on and agreed to the plan. The only "hypothetical" element is the subway (and, yes, other transit infrastructure like the transitway and expanded GO). If they announce it tomorrow, the sales offices will be open before New Year's. Obviously Metrus isn't going to give up it's golden leases on the north side of Highway 7 before that but the Markham half is totally ready to go. As for the hydro corridor...well, if you don't know what the development plans are for the node itself, plus the new zoning along Steeles (in Vaughan and Markham) look back on this thread.



I don't think that's obvious at all. When's the last time you were at Yonge and Steeles? There is already more development on the Markham side than Toronto. Markham and Vaughan have updated, high-density secondary plans for Yonge Street now in place. Toronto hasn't even started such a process as far as I know. The Highway 7 area has been a designated node for several years and those plans, as I just said, are also in place. Developers don't decide to build transit-oriented development on Yonge Street on a lark. It will happen as surely as North York Centre did. But, as I've also said before, I'm sure there were people, circa 1970, who didn't want the subway to up to Finch based on "hypothetical development" in the middle of nowhere.

Ok TJ, here it goes. Scarborough was 100 percent politics, and it was ridiculous, and even then it still might not get built. But you saw it que jumped the Yonge extension, as if Scarborough has wanted a subway since 1954. That's not the case at all, Scarborough has wanted the subway way long then even before the Yonge extension(the original one to Finch was built). Is the Yonge corridor denser? Yes. Personally, me? I actually kind of support it more then I did before. I would actually like to see a model for an extension to Yonge and Major Mac. And Jane and Major Mac for Spadina.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Ok TJ, here it goes. Scarborough was 100 percent politics, and it was ridiculous, and even then it still might not get built. But you saw it que jumped the Yonge extension, as if Scarborough has wanted a subway since 1954. That's not the case at all, Scarborough has wanted the subway way long then even before the Yonge extension(the original one to Finch was built). Is the Yonge corridor denser? Yes. Personally, me? I actually kind of support it more then I did before. I would actually like to see a model for an extension to Yonge and Major Mac. And Jane and Major Mac for Spadina.

We're mostly on the same page. I think an argument could be made for subway over LRT in Scarborough and vice versa (I personally prefer LRT but at least see the opposing view). But none of those arguments were made in council - the mayor didn't even know the routing for the LRT he was opposed to, nor does he know (though he cites it all the time) that St. Clair is neither an LRT nor a disaster. I bet he's never even been out there.

But what Scarborough "wants" or "deserves" shouldn't be the point. I think, even if we have different opinions on what it would look like, most of the people on this board want to see transit planning de-politicized. There would still be quibbling about what's getting built where and when, but at least it would be backroom shenanigans instead of blatant horse-trading

The Transit City LRT was supposed to go up Jane to 7 and I think that would have worked nicely; ditto for Don Mills. Yonge is different because it's Yonge[/]. A model up to Major Mack would be interesting and I think certainly an argument up to 16th can be made but, practically speaking, I think 7 makes the most sense, and then BRT (with potential upgrade to LRT) north from there.

I think the people at Metrolinx know the reality behind all the stuff we're tossing around here but have been largely pushed out of the process. If they can actually get authority to plan a regional network, instead of letting a few local ward councillors do whatever they see fit, I suspect we'll all be better off in the long run

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

We're mostly on the same page. I think an argument could be made for subway over LRT in Scarborough and vice versa (I personally prefer LRT but at least see the opposing view). But none of those arguments were made in council - the mayor didn't even know the routing for the LRT he was opposed to, nor does he know (though he cites it all the time) that St. Clair is neither an LRT nor a disaster. I bet he's never even been out there.

But what Scarborough "wants" or "deserves" shouldn't be the point. I think, even if we have different opinions on what it would look like, most of the people on this board want to see transit planning de-politicized. There would still be quibbling about what's getting built where and when, but at least it would be backroom shenanigans instead of blatant horse-trading

The Transit City LRT was supposed to go up Jane to 7 and I think that would have worked nicely; ditto for Don Mills. Yonge is different because it's Yonge[/]. A model up to Major Mack would be interesting and I think certainly an argument up to 16th can be made but, practically speaking, I think 7 makes the most sense, and then BRT (with potential upgrade to LRT) north from there.

I think the people at Metrolinx know the reality behind all the stuff we're tossing around here but have been largely pushed out of the process. If they can actually get authority to plan a regional network, instead of letting a few local ward councillors do whatever they see fit, I suspect we'll all be better off in the long run

I agree with this. I think Canada's Wonderland would be a major trip generator at least during the middle of the year. I think the DRL going up the Leslie/7 would also be benefical. I think people need to understand if this is done, it will take cars off the road. That's the main point. For scarborough? I think the BD has to go to Finch or Steeles. I think this is the chance to peel ridership off Yonge so the situation you and instert describe at Yonge/Steeles does not look so bad.

 

[andrewpmk]

The key is not to have to rely on development to make a subway viable. it has to be considered a nice side effect. If you rely on that type of transit planning, you end up with the likes of the Sheppard subway. This line makes sense today, opening day will see numbers above 10,000PPHD, and therefore should be built. Sheppard, if you were to build out the entire line, would be lucky to hit 6,000. That isn't how you build transit. You also don't cheap out and build the cheapest option. Like with Scarborough, an LRT might "work" here, but it isn't necessarily the best option.

There is plenty of development along Sheppard. There are dozens of massive condo developments (particularly around Bayview/Leslie), there are several shopping malls, there is a hospital at Leslie, there is a fairly large concentration of office space at Victoria Park. You are also trying to capture as much of the 401 suburb to suburb traffic as possible, something which obviously requires numerous other lines connecting to Sheppard. Sure you might not get the absurd ridership numbers of the Yonge line south of Sheppard but just because a subway is not extremely overcrowded does not make it successful. If LRT actually turns out to be adequate on Sheppard, it would be because the annoying transfer scares away riders and everyone uses the 401 instead. It seems ridiculous walking along Sheppard and seeing the condo cranes everywhere, terrible traffic on Sheppard, terrible traffic on 401, etc. and thinking why Miller wanted to force everyone to transfer at Don Mills. Compare this to walking along the SRT route south of Ellesmere (ghost town) or the route of the subway we are now building to Jane & Highway 7 (except for York University, ghost town).

The only difference between the Yonge subway extension and the Sheppard subway is that one line goes directly downtown and one line requires you to transfer to go downtown. Aside from that, I think that Sheppard Avenue east of Don Mills probably has more development than Yonge north of Finch. Except for the Finch-Steeles section, the Yonge subway extension won't be that busy until major redevelopment happens in that area.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Condos and office space with large parking lots and sidewalks where you have to walk far from one box to another.

 

[andrewpmk]

Condos and office space with large parking lots and sidewalks where you have to walk far from one box to another.

The traffic in that area is so dreadful in rush hour I think people will use a subway if it is useful to them. Sheppard Avenue has some of the worst congested intersections in the city.