Toronto Wellesley on the Park | 194.15m | 60s | Lanterra | KPMB

For anyone that thought that this giant plot of land would be completely parkland, well they were only fooling themselves. I do support parks and green space, and so I'd like to see a proposal that combines condos/office/mixed-use and green space. This is what I envisioned.

opera-idea.jpg


Retail would front both Wellesley and Breadalbane St. The red are the condos and the green obviously green space. The black lines are an idea that would propose patio space fronting on to the green space. Potentially patio space fronting on to St. Luke's Lane if possible?

Understand that this is just an idea - I know that there are parking entrances and drop-offs to contend with in regards to developments and all the architectural aspects, but you get a slight idea of what I am thinking.
 
1) Creating parks with lots of corners and nooks and crannies and shadowy corners and areas that are cut-off from the rest of the park is never a good idea. That middle area of greenspace you show in your diagram (running east-west) is much narrower than you may have thought when you created it. (It's equivalent to only a few storefronts' width.)

2) People in the area didn't want a smaller, less useable "green space". They wanted a park.

Unfortunately, capitalism is a system that serves business (developers), not the people at large in a society (the neighbourhood.) So we lost.
 
SP!RE said:
1)

Unfortunately, capitalism is a system that serves business (developers), not the people at large in a society (the neighbourhood.) So we lost.
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why surprised?
Business generates employment, GDP and revenue, parks generates nothing but costs money. If everyone feels entitled to have a park 50 meters from where they live, our city will be dead quiet like the country side. When one says I want a park, that essentially means "use everyone else's money to give ME a free park near where I live", doesn't it?

Want a big park, move to where the park is. Outside downtown, trees and green space is everywhere. The entire city outside Yonge St and its peripheries is basically a park.
 
SP!RE said:
I won't name names, but I am fascinated by people on UT who feel that our city suffers from some lack of development and that developers are some sort of victims in these scenarios. (And that the people of Toronto are victorious because we get to have MOAR TOWERS!!!1111.)

SERIOUSLY? Every single square inch of downtown Toronto is being turned into whatever developers want it to be and you're bitching about the fact that taxpaying, urban-core-living Torontonians want more green-space?

I imagine many of the UTers with these opinions just don't live downtown or have any familiarity with it beyond its skyline. I just can't think of any other reason one would oppose new greenspaces in the downtown core.

I now await a flood of upset responses from the 15-year-old-skyscraper-fanboys-from-Markham. "But I like tall buildings. MOAR TOWERSSSS!!!". I was once a young UrbanToronto user myself, a high-schooler posting from Waterloo. But at some point I grew up, lived in downtown Toronto and realized that "more towers" are not a solution to ANYTHING. Not one thing. I hope that many of our younger contingent here will also learn the nuances of development and creating a good city.

If your approach to development is parks vs. buildings (and buildings always win), then your approach to city-building is self-centered and quite frankly unfortunate.
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Good one. Agree with you 100%. So many narrow-minded people here...
 
balenciaga said:
Want a big park, move to where the park is. Outside downtown, trees and green space is everywhere. The entire city outside Yonge St and its peripheries is basically a park.
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This must be the fifth time I see you expressing this idea that people who have a different vision of downtown (and its green-spaces) than you should just all move to the 'burbs. Absolutely ridiculous. You're definitely onto the Ignore List now.

I am astonished by how pro-developer UTers can be in every single discussion on every single project.
 
SP!RE said:
I won't name names, but I am fascinated by people on UT who feel that our city suffers from some lack of development and that developers are some sort of victims in these scenarios. (And that the people of Toronto are victorious because we get to have MOAR TOWERS!!!1111.)

SERIOUSLY? Every single square inch of downtown Toronto is being turned into whatever developers want it to be and you're bitching about the fact that taxpaying, urban-core-living Torontonians want more green-space?

I imagine many of the UTers with these opinions just don't live downtown or have any familiarity with it beyond its skyline. I just can't think of any other reason one would oppose new greenspaces in the downtown core.

I now await a flood of upset responses from the 15-year-old-skyscraper-fanboys-from-Markham. "But I like tall buildings. MOAR TOWERSSSS!!!". I was once a young UrbanToronto user myself, a high-schooler posting from Waterloo. But at some point I grew up, lived in downtown Toronto and realized that "more towers" are not a solution to ANYTHING. Not one thing. I hope that many of our younger contingent here will also learn the nuances of development and creating a good city.

If your approach to development is parks vs. buildings (and buildings always win), then your approach to city-building is self-centered and quite frankly unfortunate.
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Very well stated Spire, I couldn't agree more.

Ignore the troll, there's a button for that.
 
Yeah admittedly, I realize that I get frustrated and upset spinning my wheels trying to change opinions. You can't change someone's opinion through a message board. It's up to people to educate themselves on these sorts of matters and be involved in the process of planning and democracy themselves.

I've resolved this evening to start using the Ignore Function for more people from now on, as to avoid getting so frustrated and wound-up at the uninformed and immensely pro-developer opinions around here.
 
I think people have gotten a little fanatical on both sides of the argument (more so for pro-park, if you ask me).

The only argument I keep hearing over and over in favour of turning this site into a park is that it's one of the last remaining large parcels of land downtown that could be turned into a park. Are we really that void of green space here though?

You have a parkette literally across the street to the south, another a block to the northeast. College Park and Allen Gardens are within a short walk. And of course, a massive one in Queen's Park literally a block away.

I've been to all these parks (with exception of the small one on Breadalbane St.) and every time it's not as if they were teeming with people. If the ones we have now aren't fully utilized and could overall be in better shape, why should we spend a bunch of money to have another?

For what this plot would have cost the city we could plow a fraction of it into Queen's Park and made in an astounding place.

More green space is great but I just don't see the practicality of it here. Even looking into the future with the increased population in this area I don't think it's under-served by green-space.

Cue the "you don't live here, you don't know what you're talking about" retort...
 
Xray_Crystal_Junkie said:
I've been to all these parks (with exception of the small one on Breadalbane St.) and every time it's not as if they were teeming with people. If the ones we have now aren't fully utilized and could overall be in better shape, why should we spend a bunch of money to have another?
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The argument is address this before it becomes a problem. Parks are not something you can easily add at a later date. We are at a critical point right now before this downtown neighbourhood receives a phenomenal amount of new residents.
 
you could do a combined park/ public square with some green space and a square with benches for people to sit with sculputures or a water feature. I am always astonished at how packed the little parkette in Yorkville is in the summer. We do need more green space and with more condos going up and condos getting smaller, people are going to want to get out of their condos more - hence the need for greater outdoor space. And I agree with the prior comment - we have limited land left downtown and in particular this neighbourhood so if we don't do it now it will never happen.
 
I guess I would ask those saying that the area isn't lacking for any green-space: How do you define what that area being sufficiently serviced by greenspace is bounded by? How do you define what is enough park-space for a neighbourhood? (I don't have an answer for this, to be honest. But I have a few ideas.)

There are tons of parks and parkettes in the St. Lawrence neighbourhood and there's a big one on Bremner in the Southcore area, but Sherbourne Common and Sugar Beach are still very well used and I don't know one person who doesn't feel that they are indispensable and absolutely fill a need that has long existed.

I also think some people here are underestimating the massive population increases in the Yonge-Wellesley area (as well as all of downtown), without any new green-space provided. Public space fills an important role that condo rooftops and other private spaces simply cannot.
 
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The parks scattered around are one element that makes St. Lawrence Market so desirable and livable. Somewhere yesterday I wrote that this area, say, Bloor to Gerrard, Bay to Parliament will have easily double the population within 10 years with no plans or land, to add any greenspace. None. Much of the greenspace areas off Yonge above the subway line between Charles E & Dundonald St. will also be shadowed in the afternoons with all the highrises going up on the east side of Yonge which sucks.
 
Too bad about the "lost park" but maybe something interesting can be done within the site that will accommodate a public space. The city can apply some pressure at the planning/permit stage to get something out of the deal. I'm not surprised that the province ignored city council, it's par for the course. I am happy, however, that something will finally get built on this site. I think it's been sitting vacant for close to 30 years??? I hope it also acts as a catalyst to get the horrible west side of the intersection of Yonge and Wellesley developed. It is just awful there. Dumpy little run down buildings and narrow sidewalks abound. It's an area that desperately needs a boost.
 
At best it appears that it will be a 'towers in the park' type setting and they simply don't work out well for anyone.
 
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