Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR

its best in the new concourse thread IMO, but ok.

I'm seriously annoyed at how the star keeps calling scope creep as cost over-runs. it cites the $80 million added for the northwest PATH as a cost overrun, and then states that they aren't even building it, while in reality they are, the new entrance on the north side of the University / York / Front intersection is framed in and construction has been ongoing for ages. the original budget didn't include the northwest PATH, so how can you call it an overrun when council votes to fund it?
 
innsertnamehere said:
its best in the new concourse thread IMO, but ok.

I'm seriously annoyed at how the star keeps calling scope creep as cost over-runs. it cites the $80 million added for the northwest PATH as a cost overrun, and then states that they aren't even building it, while in reality they are, the new entrance on the north side of the University / York / Front intersection is framed in and construction has been ongoing for ages. the original budget didn't include the northwest PATH, so how can you call it an overrun when council votes to fund it?
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The Star piece did not, in my reading, say that the $80 million cost overrun was to do with the NW PATH connection. The Star reads:

While some delays have been resolved, revised construction schedules are incomplete, omitting dates for the construction of a connection to the northwest PATH system, which the City had identified as a priority. Carillon’s oversight of its $495-million portion of the project budget has also seen costs jump $80 million over budget, as was revealed last fall.
 
The 80M increase has to do with costs from heritage restoration and other issues, not PATH per se. Anyways, the cost increase, while undesirable, is a minor issue compared to the historical neglect and under investment in the station - of which the current round is merely doing what's necessary for the medium term. We shouldn't be asking why we're spending so much - but why it took so so long to spend so little.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
The 80M increase has to do with costs from heritage restoration and other issues, not PATH per se. Anyways, the cost increase, while undesirable, is a minor issue compared to the historical neglect and under investment in the station - of which the current round is merely doing what's necessary for the medium term. We shouldn't be asking why we're spending so much - but why it took so so long to spend so little.

AoD
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After decades of neglect, during which amazingly nothing came crashing down, having costs run higher than expected to restore and improve the station is now a big deal. How long until some penny-pinching politicians start the "wasteful over-spending" rhetoric? How many people have started a home renovation on an old house and then discovered some larger problems hidden away that have to be dealt with before the original renovation can be completed?
 
AlbertHWagstaff said:
After decades of neglect, during which amazingly nothing came crashing down, having costs run higher than expected to restore and improve the station is now a big deal. How long until some penny-pinching politicians start the "wasteful over-spending" rhetoric? How many people have started a home renovation on an old house and then discovered some larger problems hidden away that have to be dealt with before the original renovation can be completed?
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Unfortunately, a certain slob at City Hall who has done **** all was the first out the gate with the complaints last year. I can only imagine this article will only fuel his fire.

AoD
 
AlbertHWagstaff said:
After decades of neglect, during which amazingly nothing came crashing down, having costs run higher than expected to restore and improve the station is now a big deal. How long until some penny-pinching politicians start the "wasteful over-spending" rhetoric? How many people have started a home renovation on an old house and then discovered some larger problems hidden away that have to be dealt with before the original renovation can be completed?
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Exactly. Even the smallest renovation I've every attempted has ended up late and over budget, it's just the nature of dealing with the unknown. The complexity of this project is mind-boggling. And it needs to be done. The city has brought in people to try to manage and minimize the costs and delays. Firing a bunch of of people and making it political won't help anything or save anyone any money. Also, all this was caused by private companies, I might point out to those on the right who claim that privatization is the route to all glory.
 
The City would hardly appoint supervision of the contractor if something wasn't amiss. That's not to say everything the Star printed is valid.
 
Why is everything the city takes on, over budget and behind schedule:confused:

Over budget and behind schedule, Toronto Union Station project may miss Pan Am games deadline
Marred by years of mismanagement, internal squabbling and contract disputes, the massive renovation of Canada’s busiest transit hub is running millions over budget and behind schedule, raising concerns that one of Union Station’s main entrances may not be ready in time for the 2015 Pan American Games.
More....http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-over-budget-behind-schedule/article18840369/
 
While I agree it's frustrating when projects are late and over-budget, I hardly blame the city for this.

When building a new facility, or development, or condo, timelines and costs are much easier to predict. Once you start going underground, or renovating an old/historic structure, things get more complicated, you find things underground which you didnt know where there, and conditions of structures are not what was expected.

Union Station is an extreme example of this. They're excavating underneath a structure that's a century old and building massive amounts of infrastructure. No company or city could acurately predict conditions underground and all the problems they could face. All of this while keeping the station open.

There are many projects that are finished on time and on budget. Some aren't. I'll put blame where it's due, like maybe Pape station, which went years over schedule. But I can't put the blame on anyone for Union Station, at least not yet, just due to the complexity and scale of the project.
 
Automation Gallery said:
Why is everything the city takes on, over budget and behind schedule:confused:

Over budget and behind schedule, Toronto Union Station project may miss Pan Am games deadline
Marred by years of mismanagement, internal squabbling and contract disputes, the massive renovation of Canada’s busiest transit hub is running millions over budget and behind schedule, raising concerns that one of Union Station’s main entrances may not be ready in time for the 2015 Pan American Games.
More....http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-over-budget-behind-schedule/article18840369/
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About two years ago, Carillion, the contractor that won the Revitalization Project, lost a great deal of their local senior staff (Carillion previously took over Vanbots in 2010, so many old employees ended up leaving). It must have been a pretty crazy and stressful time for the people that remained. It's not an excuse, but under those conditions, I'm not surprised at all that they had difficulties managing a project of that scope, and I certainly wouldn't lay the blame at the feet of the City.

Unfortunately, at this point (even two years ago), to fire the construction manager and bring in a replacement would end up costing more time and pushing the project farther behind than if you had just kept the original CM. For a decision like that to actually be appropriate, the construction manager would need to be especially incompetent, with no hope of project completion at all.
 
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wopchop said:
About two years ago, Carillion, the contractor that won the Revitalization Project, lost a great deal of their local senior staff (Carillion previously took over Vanbots in 2010, so many old employees ended up leaving). It must have been a pretty crazy and stressful time for the people that remained. It's not an excuse, but under those conditions, I'm not surprised at all that they had difficulties managing a project of that scope, and I certainly wouldn't lay the blame at the feet of the City.

Unfortunately, at this point (even two years ago), to fire the construction manager and bring in a replacement would end up costing more time and pushing the project farther behind than if you had just kept the original CM. For a decision like that to actually be appropriate, the construction manager would need to be especially incompetent, with no hope of project completion at all.
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That is understood.....but, surely, if internal issues with the contractor/construction manager have caused delays and financial overruns it seems a bit illogical that that financial burden should fall on the client.
 
There hasn't been financial burdens, all cost increase have come from scope creep. (Addition of PATH tunnel, additional historic preservation)
 
^Can happen but isn't it hard to really say sometimes what is scope creep and what is incompetence? If I were a client or the owner and I had impunity to use scope creep as an excuse couldn't I massively massage the numbers in my favour?

On the other hand isn't it hard to penalize the contractor? I recall something like penalty clauses aren't allowed or they are but it depends on what level of government?
 
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