Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

Double level EMUs are a good choice for commuter rail but as I stated earlier they are impractical and problematic for a RER type system. Metrolinx {and Torontonians} would regret going double decker EMU for RER.
Sydney did have problems, but Paris also runs double decker RER trains and they seem to be OK with it.

Our system is intrisinically designed for long double decker trains, 300 meter platforms that take a few minutes to walk from one end to other, and running at lower frequencies, and is currently remote from being capable of 3min headway, and the associated dwell times.

Even UPX will handle double deckers here easily (CalTrain dual door height Stadler KISS) with platform door modifications, if what I saw in Paris is any indication.

15min double decker service is easy compared to 3min-headway (or something like that) double decker service which is where Sydney had problems.

For our particular system, the double decker and single fleet pros may still outweigh the cons. A more mixed fleet may actually make sense, given commuter station spacing will remain for a long time -- there is not dozens of urban stations at this time to contend with. Adding 15min double decker EMUs probably won't result in the Sydney situation. Nor even 7.5 minute, especially if Union goes level boarding to speed up boarding.

If the RER budget is raised, CBTC is deployed, 5min headways or better are planned, and platform height is being changed to all-door level boarding, we definitely should consider going single deck, though.

Tough decisions, I think.
 
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I don't think Paris is a good analogy because Paris already has a massive subway system serving the city while Toronto has a small one.

Double deckers are problematic, less accessible for the mobility impaired, slower due to far longer dwell times, have lower frequency capacity, are less reliable again due to boarding problems, and due to these issues don't really offer any increase in capacity over single level EMUs which is why Melbourne ditched theirs and Sydney is also now replacing some of it's double decker fleets with single level backed up by the fact that people tend to like taking them more.

For commuter rail double levels make good sense but for a RER not so much. The only exception I could see would be for the UPX because you have basically just 2 main on/off points and both are terminus stations serving few in between unlike a RER.
 
I don't think Paris is a good analogy because Paris already has a massive subway system serving the city while Toronto has a small one.

Double deckers are problematic, less accessible for the mobility impaired, slower due to far longer dwell times, have lower frequency capacity, are less reliable again due to boarding problems, and due to these issues don't really offer any increase in capacity over single level EMUs

For commuter rail double levels make good sense but for a RER not so much.
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More images for paris rer double-decker coaches underground
[...]
Double deck trains with 6 doors per carriage

The current Cityrail rolling stock is made up of double deck trains with 4 doors per carriage (one pair on each side). Single deck trains, with their 8 doors per carriage, are therefore able to get passengers on and off more quickly and thus have lower dwell times at stations. One possible compromise to this would be to retain double deck trains, but increase the number of doors to 6. The suburban rail network in Paris (RER) uses such trains, and its network is roughly the same size as the Cityrail suburban network (as opposed to Paris’ metro network, which services the CBD and inner city areas). There would be a slight reduction in the number of seats per train, but still significantly more than would be the case with single deck trains.
[...]
Are there alternatives to the metro plan? | Transport Sydney

Meantime, Paris certainly has it right:
MI09 Double-Decker Train, France
ratprailway.JPG


MI09 is a five-car, double-decker commuter train operating on the RER A line in Paris, the busiest regional line in Europe. The 100th train in the series was delivered in July 2015, and 40 more trains are expected to be delivered before the end of 2017.

The duplex train is owned and operated by Transport Syndicate of the Ile de France (STIF) and Régie Autonome des Transports Parisiens (RATP), while the manufacturer is the Alstom-Bombardier consortium.

The MI09 trains have replaced the MI84 single-decker trains on the RER A line, while the replacement of the MS61 trains is in progress. The new train can accommodate approximately 50% more passengers than the MI84, and 40% more than the MS61, besides reducing energy consumption by 55% compared to the MS61, and by 31% compared to the MI84.
[...]
Accommodation in the RER A line trains
Each train has a capacity to accommodate 2,600 seated and standing passengers. The floors of the trainsets are designed to be even with the platforms. The train features 34 dedicated seats for persons with reduced mobility, and two areas for wheelchair users.
[...]
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/mi09-double-deck-train/

Some people have trouble relieving themselves when their jeans are too tight. Others use this wonderful invention called a 'zipper'. It's not a case of single v. double decker, it's a case of good design or not.
 

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You always will have passengers who will never get out of their seats until the vehicle actually stops. (Worse are the ones who must leave via the front doors on buses, even though they were seated closer to the center doors.)
 
To be more specific....

There are two running-trades people on board every UPX train. These are categorized as equivalent of an "engineer" and "conductor". This is mandated by Transport Canada.

There is at least one, and sometimes two, onboard services people on each UPX train, called GSAs. These people are not in the running trades, and do not have the right to move up in the company to the running trades.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

GSR's(Guest Service Representatives) are allowed to move up to become CSA's and many already have and from then on they can move up to the running trades. The only real difference right now is that they are currently only given one chance to do so, but they are now fighting to change that limitation.

For those who are curious the nomenclature we use it is as follows;
QCTO - "Qualified Commuter Train Operator" for the engineers
CTO - "Commuter Train Operator" for the conductors
 
More likely, if there is ever fleet commonality between UPX and GO, it will be one 3-EMU or 4-EMU detached from a 12-EMU trainset.

The EMUs are lightweight enough to go on the viaduct, though turning radius is uncertain.

image-png.80872

Thank you for that infograpic.

I am more thinking of when demand rises. Look at the Yonge line. It could go to double decker then the overloading would become a non issue.
 
No and No

I know of 2 Ministry of MTO who wanted to have a wye with service to the west, but were told no by their boss.

As you know, I am no technical wizard....but it seems incredibly short sighted to not build that wye.......even if they had/have no immediate plans to run service from the west at this time....it just sounds like one of those things that will be way harder/more expensive to build/add at a later date (if it is even possible).
 
As you know, I am no technical wizard....but it seems incredibly short sighted to not build that wye.......even if they had/have no immediate plans to run service from the west at this time....it just sounds like one of those things that will be way harder/more expensive to build/add at a later date (if it is even possible).

Why would they even need a wye? It is highly unlikely that most traffic from YYZ would get on a train going towards Kitchener. I can see this being a stub line for many decades.
 
Why would they even need a wye? It is highly unlikely that most traffic from YYZ would get on a train going towards Kitchener. I can see this being a stub line for many decades.
There is no doubt that there are more people east of Pearson.....so "most" is the measure now? More people live west of Union than East....but we run trains on LSE and LSW...no? "Most" is not the measure at all....it should be would there ever be enough people to warrant service.

If you add up the populations of the cities with stations on the corridor west of Pearson it is a fairly significant figure....and then ask....do any of those people travel on business or for pleasure out of Pearson.....if the answer is "yes" then you have to figure out if the numbers warrant an effort to try and get them to from Pearson by rail and at what service level (hint, it need not be at the same level as Union to Pearson).......and then figure out is the service needed now or in the future.....but without the wye...it matters not, because you can't get trains off the corridor into the airport lands....and that was what my post meant...that seemed to be a lot easier to deliver when building the UPe rather than at retrofitting it in the future.
 
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Is UPX having the same issue since they are the same as Sonoma?? Tracks no issue at all.

Actually thee currently is a problem with the UP trains using a section of the track. In between mile 12 & 9(Etobicoke North & Weston station), UP trains are limited to a maximum of 60mph when traveling eastward because of excessive lateral sway. Strangely enough when traveling at the same speed westward the issue is barely perceptible and so the speed restriction does not apply in that direction. Somehow going downhill seems to make it worse, as that's the only difference. Basically the trains vibrate violently when traveling at 70mph and above in this section of track. But apparently(most sources) have said they haven't been able to find anything wrong with the trains or the track.
 
There is no doubt that there are more people east of Pearson.....so "most" is the measure now? More people live west of Union than East....but we run trains on LSE and LSW...no? "Most" is not the measure at all....it should be would there ever be enough people to warrant service.

If you add up the populations of the cities with stations on the corridor west of Pearson it is a fairly significant figure....and then ask....do any of those people travel on business or for pleasure out of Pearson.....if the answer is "yes" then you have to figure out if the numbers warrant an effort to try and get them to from Pearson by rail and at what service level (hint, it need not be at the same level as Union to Pearson).......and then figure out is the service needed now or in the future.....but without the wye...it matters not, because you can't get trains off the corridor into the airport lands....and that was what my post meant...that seemed to be a lot easier to deliver when building the UPe rather than at retrofitting it in the future.

That makes some sense.

So, it would be like how LSE and W are, where some are through trains and others are not?
 
There is no doubt that there are more people east of Pearson.....so "most" is the measure now? More people live west of Union than East....but we run trains on LSE and LSW...no? "Most" is not the measure at all....it should be would there ever be enough people to warrant service.

If you add up the populations of the cities with stations on the corridor west of Pearson it is a fairly significant figure....and then ask....do any of those people travel on business or for pleasure out of Pearson.....if the answer is "yes" then you have to figure out if the numbers warrant an effort to try and get them to from Pearson by rail and at what service level (hint, it need not be at the same level as Union to Pearson).......and then figure out is the service needed now or in the future.....but without the wye...it matters not, because you can't get trains off the corridor into the airport lands....and that was what my post meant...that seemed to be a lot easier to deliver when building the UPe rather than at retrofitting it in the future.

For better or for worse, the decision has been made that this is the service design that we're getting. There had been some mulling about building a transfer station just south of Woodbine Racetrack in the future when the various services were built up - it wouldn't be perfect, but it would allow for a better connection to the airport from points to the west - but that idea seems to have disappeared from the collective memories of those in charge.

Actually thee currently is a problem with the UP trains using a section of the track. In between mile 12 & 9(Etobicoke North & Weston station), UP trains are limited to a maximum of 60mph when traveling eastward because of excessive lateral sway. Strangely enough when traveling at the same speed westward the issue is barely perceptible and so the speed restriction does not apply in that direction. Somehow going downhill seems to make it worse, as that's the only difference. Basically the trains vibrate violently when traveling at 70mph and above in this section of track. But apparently(most sources) have said they haven't been able to find anything wrong with the trains or the track.

I thought that they'd tracked that down to "subsurface conditions" by the golf course. I'll ask any of my contacts in T&S to see what they may know.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Actually thee currently is a problem with the UP trains using a section of the track. In between mile 12 & 9(Etobicoke North & Weston station), UP trains are limited to a maximum of 60mph when traveling eastward because of excessive lateral sway. Strangely enough when traveling at the same speed westward the issue is barely perceptible and so the speed restriction does not apply in that direction. Somehow going downhill seems to make it worse, as that's the only difference. Basically the trains vibrate violently when traveling at 70mph and above in this section of track. But apparently(most sources) have said they haven't been able to find anything wrong with the trains or the track.
I thought that they'd tracked that down to "subsurface conditions" by the golf course. I'll ask any of my contacts in T&S to see what they may know.
Very interesting. It may not be, but my first thought is undamped resonance in the bogies. The addition or modification of the existing lateral dampers, if any, might vastly reduce or eliminate the problem. It could be a 'corrugation' in the track inducing the behaviour in the bogies, and I noticed some harsh corrugation in the track at Mt Pleasant when waiting for a train last summer. How did it manifest? *Audibly* as a freight went by. It sounded like core lamination buzz in a faulty transformer, really loud, and my first thought was since it was a heavy stone train, there was some sort of electro-dynamic braking system being pulse-applied. As time went on, and the train speed and buzz frequency remained the same, I realized it had to be the rail-head, possibly the result of being recently laterally ground by a track maintenance train. I walked up and down the platform as the train passed, the sound was constant.

Whatever, rather than theorize, here's some research on bogie resonance, cause and remediation:
http://www.skf.com/binary/82-62732/RTB-1-02-Bogie-designs.pdf
https://sem.org/wp-content/uploads/...ction-Can-Explain-Rail-Corrugation-Growth.pdf

Here's a surprisingly good article at Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_oscillation

IIRC, the Amtrak E-60s had a severe problem with this that was never resolved. Googling, I can't find direct reference, but this might be related:
The locomotive was designed to be operated at speeds of up to 120 mph. However, its heavy weight caused the model to lean when operating at speeds in excess of 100 mph, resulting in the locomotive becoming unstable. As a result the Federal Railroad Administration limited the E60's top speed to just 90 mph, somewhat crippling its ability as a fast and efficient passenger locomotive.
http://www.american-rails.com/e60.html

(Addendum: The GMD (London, Ontario) Type 66 sold to AWS in the UK (and others later) had to have lateral and yaw dampers added to meet the requirements of the UK Rail Inspectorate (IIRC), track wear and stability being much more a concern in the UK and Europe in general, even though the 66 had triple axle self-steering bogies. The need for the added dampers was established by the forerunner Type 59. )

I've noticed more than a few times riding UPX for the Sharyo bogies (trucks) to hunt and flutter, sometimes causing what sounded like distress in the Cardan shaft joints. The only things I can relate the feeling to are the SRT and LRC coaches, both of which have small wheeled low-mass trucks. (The ride feels like casters sometimes!) Although the inducement might be in track irregularities, just like a car, within reason, it's the suspension 'tuning' that is responsible to accommodate it. The Cardan shaft drive might just exacerbate it, partly by reducing the unsprung mass evem further by having the drive motors inboard, and an unneutralized kick going back through the shaft to the motor. Again, not unlike front wheel drive stub-shafts on a car when wearing, especially the universals.

If this is the cause, it's an easy fix in terms of the mechanics, but a tough one to get the tuning right. It might take experimenting on the SMART cars not yet in service to get this right, albeit they might already be in service now. It might also take computer modelling. (Just adding an absorptive mass like a sand-bag on the trucks as an experiment might show a shift in the behaviour, and a hint on where to add dampers and their required counter behaviour).

Very curious...the field techs aren't going to fix this one. It's probably an engineering challenge.
 
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Excellent heads-up Mark.

It's always frustrating digging for specs on the Nippon Sharyo DMUs, as I really want to know if those bogies are untried and tested in their present form. I do note "airbag suspension"...which can work very well...once the bugs are ironed out...and once the engineering is tweaked to get it right. I'm biting my lip until we hear more on this.

Here's the best I could find on specs for the trucks (no model number or manufacturer stated):

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http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/products/pages/smart.html

Note the proposal specs were for a "bolster supported" truck: (Manufacturer specs above state "bolsterless")

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http://www2.sonomamarintrain.org/userfiles/file/Vehicles -Draft DMU Technical Specification 1-20-10.pdf

So what happened between the time the specs were stated, and the alternate design accepted?
 

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