Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[junctionist]

The article may be poor, but thare are certainly shades of NIMBYisim in the Weston community. Two of their four big issues appear to be the smell of the trains and the noise - those are NIMBY issues. (and as the other two seem to be no local service - which GO has since turned around and promised - and the level crossing, which they have since been promised concessions).

I disagree. A group can't be associated with the NIMBY attitude if they propose moderate, tried and true solutions to mitigate problems. We have the technology, and it's not radically new and out of reach. Given that, I find it unreasonable for any established community to be told to suck it up.

 

[nfitz]

A group can't be associated with the NIMBY attitude if they propose moderate, tried and true solutions to mitigate problems.

True - but have you heard some of what they are saying? Some is quite reasonable ... but they are saying .... you better sit down for this ... "the trains need to be electrified because of the smell of the train engines". Not because of the increased efficiency, energy savings, increased acceleration, shorter running times, more opportunities to serve local station, etc.. But because of the smell.

You can't get any more NIMBY than that.

 

[taal]

So correct me if I'm wrong but as it stands there will be several stops between union and the airport?

Have they determined exactly where these stops would be?
What would they use on this line anyway? A regular subway or something closer to a go train ... which really makes no sense considering the ridership demands. Would it not make more sense for this to be similar to the transit city lines? ...... sorry, transfer city
With 2/3 cars connected?

 

[RedRocket191]

So correct me if I'm wrong but as it stands there will be several stops between union and the airport?

Have they determined exactly where these stops would be?
What would they use on this line anyway? A regular subway or something closer to a go train ... which really makes no sense considering the ridership demands. Would it not make more sense for this to be similar to the transit city lines? ...... sorry, transfer city
With 2/3 cars connected?

I think it's too early to answer any of that. There might have been gentleman's (gentlewoman's?) agreements, but nothing really more than that.

 

[TOareaFan]

So correct me if I'm wrong but as it stands there will be several stops between union and the airport?

Have they determined exactly where these stops would be?

The original Blue 22 proposal only had one stop between Union and Pearson and that was the Bloor Station on the Georgetown GO line.

A real easy compromise (considering the Georgetown GO line seems to be the path the train would take) would be to have the train stop at all of the GO Stations along that line between Union and Pearson......so that would be a total of two more stops (Weston.....because we all know that the protests will stop if they get service.....and Etobicoke North.....clearly Bellfield and Kipling is calling out for a link to the Airport).......all of the other stops on the Georgetown GO line are west/north of the airport (Malton, Bramalea, Brampton, Mount Pleasant, Georgetown) and always saw the benefit of this service being in the infrastructure investment in the line (which is happening anyway) possibly leading to more GO service (which is happening anyway).....

....so are we to think that a +/- 6 year delay in getting approval for the terms of Referene for an EA is worth it if it produces 2 more stops? Do we think that those 2 additional stops are in areas that are going to drive so much more ridership that the cost of the trip can drop way below the $20?

Or are we able to consider that, maybe, the original plan is the only one that makes any business sense and that public transit should be looking to piggy back on the infrastructure rather than kill the project.

Just an alternate view.

 

[taal]

If the above is the case ... and we use normal GO fares this could be a DRL of sorts ...

It would add relieve congestion on the bloor line ... at least anyone that would be traveling farther west then Kippling.

 

[TOareaFan]

If the above is the case ... and we use normal GO fares this could be a DRL of sorts ...

It would add relieve congestion on the bloor line ... at least anyone that would be traveling farther west then Kippling.

It would be great if, when more frequent GO service is available, that people saw this as a anlternative to the TTC's Bloor line......for me to believe that were the case, however, I would have to see, today, anyone using the Bloor Station.....more often than not, the Eastbound trains in the morning stop there and let very, very few people off and no one gets on.....the westbound trains in the evening see no one getting off and very, very, few people getting on.....either no one knows this train stops so close to the bloor line or, people who live around their prefer to pay ttc fares and take a little longer to get downtown rather than pay the $3.70 that a ride from Bloor to Union costs.

I don't use the Lakeshore line so I don't know how many people from Liberty Village area or parkdale get on at Exhibition for a no stop ride to Union but, I would imagine, it is not many who are willing to pay that premium over the TTC streetcar for the slight savings in time.

 

[ShonTron]

There should be three additional stops - Woodbine Racetrack (connect with VIA/GO trains with a short run to the airport as well as MT, BT and YRT and a quick hop to Humber College) Mount Dennis (connect with the LRT subway at Eglinton) and Parkdale or Liberty Village at Queen or King. If you use modern EMUs or even DMUs, they'll have pretty speedy acceleration times compared with GO bi-level locomotive powered trains. I'd even consider trading Etobicoke North for Woodbine.

Two branches - one to the airport running every 20 minutes (it would take 28-30 minutes) and one to Brampton/Mount Pleasant running every 20 minutes would give you a damned good rapid transit line for northwest Toronto.

 

[TOareaFan]

There should be three additional stops - Woodbine Racetrack (connect with VIA/GO trains with a short run to the airport as well as MT, BT and YRT and a quick hop to Humber College) Mount Dennis (connect with the LRT subway at Eglinton) and Parkdale or Liberty Village at Queen or King. If you use modern EMUs or even DMUs, they'll have pretty speedy acceleration times compared with GO bi-level locomotive powered trains. I'd even consider trading Etobicoke North for Woodbine.

Two branches - one to the airport running every 20 minutes (it would take 28-30 minutes) and one to Brampton/Mount Pleasant running every 20 minutes would give you a damned good rapid transit line for northwest Toronto.

Fine (and I have always wanted GO to build more stations on that line including/especially the Liberty Village one) but those will cost money.....the RFP was for an express line to the airport from Pearson. 30 minutes would, probably, only be considered "express" by business travellers at the most extreme times of rush hour...most other times a cab can get them to the airport in 30 minutes.

So, while the thing should not be built exclusively for business travellers, we have to accept that they will be the most common users of a train from Union to Pearson......if you design and price it to discourage them you have just built a new GO service that happens to go through the airport.....nothing wrong with that....it just wasn't the plan that the proponents (and others) responded to.

I would guess, that what you are suggesting is something along the lines of what will happen......with the expanded GO service coming on that line, with the ability to add more trains and express GO runs, it will be possible to add more stations while not stretching regular users commute times to much....what you wil get, though, is GO serving the airport and (IMO) an inability to take the trains into the airport (the detour would destroy the line as an efficient commuting tool) so a transfer to a people mover will be needed...which will discourage people from taking the thing as a means to get to the airport and we will look back and say "why did we build that....no one uses it)".

I continue to see nothing particularly wrong with the original thought process which was, as I understand it:

1. Use public funds to improve the core infrastructure
2. Once the core infrastructure is upgraded, you can increase the speed and regularity of the public transit on the line (as has already been announced by GO and Metrolinx...to varying degrees);
3. Once the core infrastructure is upgraded a private company can invest some of their coin to create an express service to the airport to satisfy the business (ie. non-commuter) needs.

1 and 2 have/are happening.....just not sure why 3 is causing such a kerfuffle.

 

[ShonTron]

Blue 22 was going to reverse #2 and #3 and use public funding for private gain. #2 in your list was never guaranteed or even promised. That's why there's so much opposition. Get it now?

 

[TOareaFan]

Blue 22 was going to reverse #2 and #3 and use public funding for private gain. #2 in your list was never guaranteed or even promised. That's why there's so much opposition. Get it now?

True, but that is hardly the fault of the private consortium planning #3? While never promised, it was recognized that for there to be any improved public/GO transit on this corridor that these upgrades were necessary anyway.

Now, however, 1 is happening (it was needed for 2 and 3) and 2 is announced and will happen before 3......so why is there continuing opposition to 3?

Assuming that GO and Metrolinx are not lying to us, the improved infrastructure on this line is going to deliver (fairly soon, actually) improved public transit on this NW corridor...so that part worked! Why would we, today, be hung up on the fact that there was a possibility that it could have worked out differently?

 

[RedRocket191]

Assuming that GO and Metrolinx are not lying to us, the improved infrastructure on this line is going to deliver (fairly soon, actually) improved public transit on this NW corridor...so that part worked! Why would we, today, be hung up on the fact that there was a possibility that it could have worked out differently?

Because until the RTP and GO 2020 came out the improved service was nothing more than rumours and hope.

 

[TOareaFan]

Because until the RTP and GO 2020 came out the improved service was nothing more than rumours and hope.

Fair enough...but the question was why would there be continued opposition? The corridor got the public investment in infrastructure, it is getting the improvements to public/regional transit....why the continued opposition to the leveraging of this investment for the creation of an express airport route?

Perhaps a better question....what would make the opposition go away? Is it a philisophical belief that all transit should be a public asset? or is there something that would allow a compromise?

 

[RedRocket191]

Perhaps a better question....what would make the opposition go away? Is it a philisophical belief that all transit should be a public asset? or is there something that would allow a compromise?

I think we're stuck in the "won't get fooled again" loop. The community felt that the authorities violated their trust the first time around - the trust that you give to people to act in your best interest. They won't trust the authorities again until it's very very clear that the new proposal is in their favour. That time might only come when shovels go in the ground because people have become cynical of the entire process.

Personally, I think a fair compromise is to have luxury express trains layered on top of what Shontron proposed:

Two branches - one to the airport running every 20 minutes (it would take 28-30 minutes) and one to Brampton/Mount Pleasant running every 20 minutes would give you a damned good rapid transit line for northwest Toronto.

If that takes too much business away from SNC-Lavalin, then why not invite them to operate the route as a contractor to GO/Metrolinx and make money that way?

 

[TOareaFan]

I think we're stuck in the "won't get fooled again" loop. The community felt that the authorities violated their trust the first time around - the trust that you give to people to act in your best interest. They won't trust the authorities again until it's very very clear that the new proposal is in their favour. That time might only come when shovels go in the ground because people have become cynical of the entire process.

Personally, I think a fair compromise is to have luxury express trains layered on top of what Shontron proposed:



If that takes too much business away from SNC-Lavalin, then why not invite them to operate the route as a contractor to GO/Metrolinx and make money that way?

I am starting to feel dumb about this 'cause I really don't understand. If the community (and by that I mean the bigger community served by this line including the folks in Weston but not exclusively them) is getting what they seek (more frequent and reliable public transit) what opposition could they (we....since it is the line I use) have to an additional service on that line that serves, primarily, a different community but does not detract from the better transit we were seeking?

I really am having trouble with the continued opposition to the express train.....which offers a different, complimentary, service to more frequent GO.