Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

AnarchoSocialist said:
A people mover to a GO stop has its own serious flaws. GO service on that line, and probably for a while to come, is hardly great. What is the frequency on trains going downtown? If you have to wait an hour for a GO train, how great is that kind of service?
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The frequency of service is set by how often the train runs and not whether or not it goes to the airport. The reality is that there is a better business case for more frequent service when you aren't servicing only a single origin and destination. By running all-stops Brampton to Union there are more people to ride the train and therefore greater frequencies are more viable. Why would there be an assumption that Air Rail Link run by Metrolinx every 20 minutes is possible but frequent service to Malton by Metrolinx is beyond their capability?

And adding yet one more transfer, especially with people with baggage to lug around, makes it even less attractive. It would basically be the same setup as the Newark Skytrain and rail link to Manhattan and after using it I have to say it is an option that should not be replicated.
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It is the same as Newark, Dusseldorf, Tokyo Haneda, JFK, Paris Orly, etc. Considering the number of people who don't check luggage anymore is so high it is the same a Atlanta, Tampa, and every other airport where you take internal transportation to get to the plane. Even with the Air Rail Link you are not able to access T3 without a transfer to the cable car.
 
According to the G&M "The service will charge a premium fare comparable to limousines"

If this is in fact what is planned how do they expect the service to be successful? Most people will opt for taking a Limo which would be far more convenient and faster than going to Union Station to catch a train. If the province cannot offer a service at a reasonable price then they should just forget about building this link. In Amsterdam the one way price from Schipol to the main station is about $5.00. This is what we should be aiming for with our Airport service. If we cannot do it then just scrap the idea altogether.

I predict that if this goes ahead - once it is up and running the government (whoever is in power) will hand it over to a private company like SNC in a sweetheart deal similar to the 407. Thats how "public / private partnerships" work in this country. The tax payer assumes the risks and foots the bills and then when the project is up and running the private sector takes over to reap the profits.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-after-private-deal-collapses/article1657229/
 
EnviroTO said:
The frequency of service is set by how often the train runs and not whether or not it goes to the airport. The reality is that there is a better business case for more frequent service when you aren't servicing only a single origin and destination. By running all-stops Brampton to Union there are more people to ride the train and therefore greater frequencies are more viable. Why would there be an assumption that Air Rail Link run by Metrolinx every 20 minutes is possible but frequent service to Malton by Metrolinx is beyond their capability?
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I view it all from what I have seen Metrolinx plan and discuss in terms of the next 10 years or so of operation. As his been discussed at length the network needs to be electrified and 15 minute frequencies offered. But that is going to be a slow project, even if it does suddenly gain traction and sped up. The corridor itself has many years ahead of construction and upgrades. And in the meantime there is little if any indication that Metrolinx is going to do much to operate much higher frequencies on its lines until electrification begins to take place. It is not so much that they cant, they probably just wont.

It is the same as Newark, Dusseldorf, Tokyo Haneda, JFK, Paris Orly, etc. Considering the number of people who don't check luggage anymore is so high it is the same a Atlanta, Tampa, and every other airport where you take internal transportation to get to the plane. Even with the Air Rail Link you are not able to access T3 without a transfer to the cable car.
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Im not saying that model isnt used elsewhere. I am saying I dont think it is good for Pearson. If that is what has to take place in the short term, its better than nothing. All that really matters in the end is something be put in place and not too much spent on it. Both are basically crappy ideas with some positives though. Role a dice to decide which one too do for all it matters....just pick something and make it work as best as possible while real, longer term solutions are planned and developed.
 
Peepers said:
According to the G&M "The service will charge a premium fare comparable to limousines"

If this is in fact what is planned how do they expect the service to be successful? Most people will opt for taking a Limo which would be far more convenient and faster than going to Union Station to catch a train. If the province cannot offer a service at a reasonable price then they should just forget about building this link. In Amsterdam the one way price from Schipol to the main station is about $5.00. This is what we should be aiming for with our Airport service. If we cannot do it then just scrap the idea altogether.

I predict that if this goes ahead - once it is up and running the government (whoever is in power) will hand it over for $3.1 billion (a massive profit to the taxpayer) to a private company like SNC in a sweetheart deal similar to the 407. Thats how "public / private partnerships" work in this country. The tax payer assumes the risks and foots the bills and then when the project is up and running the private sector takes over to reap the profits.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-after-private-deal-collapses/article1657229/
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Took the liberty of fixing your post cause you seemed to have left a bit out. ;)
 
^ The wikipedia article only mentions those $ 100 billion and refers to another link.

And that other link mentions the estimate of $ 104 - 107 billion, but does not specify how it was obtained.

Not that it was a good idea to sell the highway, but the suggested cost to taxpayers seems unrealistic.
 
To be clear, I completely oppose ever having built the 407; but the cost of 100B plus (for land) is simply not true.

That may be, at a stretch, the estimated value in current dollars, were the land put to its 'highest and best use'. Even that is pushing it.

The land for 407 was acquired before and during the Bill Davis Era in the late 60's and early 70s (the portion from Markham to Brampton anyway), this was the original Bill Davis - era Greenbelt, meant to be the line beyond which no development would creep! (oops) it also doubled as a hydro corridor (in part) and portions were used for the Big CN Mainline by-pass.

At the time of land assembly there were still significant farms within the City of Toronto, never mind Markham/Vaughan, I remember picking corn at Kennedy & Passmore in the early 80's more than 10 years after this land was assembled.

The portion that flows down through Mississauga was in part the intended Corridor of the 403 (which originally had a different and larger route plan).

I'm not sure about the lands n/e of Toronto, these may well have been acquired more recently, but were certainly farmlands and rural and not likely facing imminent development.
 
Rainforest said:
^ The wikipedia article only mentions those $ 100 billion and refers to another link.

And that other link mentions the estimate of $ 104 - 107 billion, but does not specify how it was obtained.

Not that it was a good idea to sell the highway, but the suggested cost to taxpayers seems unrealistic.
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That quote is from the Queens Park Hansard and is a direct quote from Conservative MPP Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins. He could be wrong about the $104 Billion figure, if so what is the actual figure? Certainly in the Billions.
 
Peepers said:
That quote is from the Queens Park Hansard and is a direct quote from Conservative MPP Mr E.J. Douglas Rollins. He could be wrong about the $104 Billion figure, if so what is the actual figure? Certainly in the Billions.
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What I find interesting is he is using that quote in support of the project as a member of the majority government at the time. That said, this was his first term and he never made it out of the back-benches so it's entirely possible nobody was listening to him or cared to debate that fact.
 
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That the airport spur being built can't handle anything longer than two-car consists is unfortunate. But can that shortcoming be mitigated by proper integration with Brampton GO service?

Thinking of this: two tracks in the Weston corridor are dedicated to Airport and Brampton service. Each service runs on 15-min headways and is electrified. Airport service is provided by two-car EMU consists, while Brampton trains are longer (4, 5, or 6)-EMU consists.

More stops added within 416: Liberty Village, Dundas West, St Clair, Eglinton, Weston GO, North Park, Islington, Etobicoke North. With Presto or another form of fare integration, that would act as a northwestern subway line.

And, the schedule is tailored to place the majority of 416 passengers (if they don't need to to go to the Airport) onto the longer Brampton trains. Say, Brampton trains pass a given station at 1.10, 1.25, 1.40, 1.55; Airport trains pass at 1.15, 1.30, 1.45, 2.00.
 
What I do not understand is this: A one-way ticket from Union Station to the Malton GO station is $5.50. The cost of the proposed Airport rail line will be comparable to taking an Airport Limo. In other words, it will cost more than $50 to travel one-way from down-town to the airport. The same distance as the $5.50 journey over GO Rail lines to Malton. How can this be?
 
Because of the way they are building the connection (a) there is significant infrastructure to pay off between 427 and the airport, (b) there are smaller specialized trains with luggage, (c) there is a dedicated check in lounge at Union Station and related staff, and (d) there are less people per train to pay off the operational costs and since it is not a through route there are less people to pay for the infrastructure costs. When you have 4000 people in a rush hour GO train the costs are divided up significantly into smaller amounts. Each train to the airport might have 100 people on it.
 
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