Toronto to experiment with prohibiting right turns on red at some intersections

[Glen]

This is going to be a disaster. I agree it's better for pedestrians but you can guarantee that 80% of people won't follow the law. Since this isn't a province wide law, people from out of town won't pay attention. People barely pay attention to the signs and lights currently. Not to mention on some of the busiest pedestrian streets, turning on a red is your best option for moving traffic.

Or like Eastbound Front @ Spadina where sometimes the only way to go right is to ignore the no right on red sign. Otherwise you might retire on the spot.

 

[marcus_a_j]

But that's not a result of pedestrians, since there is only one east-west pedestrian crossing, on the north side of Front.

 

[Glen]

But that's not a result of pedestrians, since there is only one east-west pedestrian crossing, on the north side of Front.

You are right, it is not the result of pedestrians. I raised it to show it can lead to gridlock. On Front, it is tolerable because the the lineup rarely goes back to Bathurst. In other areas it might cause gridlock, which is not good for anyone.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Didn't studies in both Montreal and NYC indicate that banning right turns on red had no effect on car-pedestrian collisions?

 

[nfitz]

Didn't studies in both Montreal and NYC indicate that banning right turns on red had no effect on car-pedestrian collisions?

Given that neither place allows right turns on red, then how did they do the studies in those locations?

Personally, the only time I've been hit by a car at an intersection (tapped might be a better word) was a car doing a right turn on a red light, in Toronto.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Given that neither place allows right turns on red, then how did they do the studies in those locations?

Quebec now allows right-turn-on-red across the province, unless prohibited by a sign. However, on Montreal Island it remains illegal. I expect that comparison of the incident rate in Quebec outside of Montreal before and after right-turn-on-red prohibition would be instructive, especially as Montreal can be used as the control for such a study.

Similarly, many NYC intersections have signs permitting right-turn-on-red in the interests of easing congestion. Though a case could be made that each intersection presents a unique risk, if there is a sufficient sample size of permitting intersections, a comparison between them and the non-permitting majority may also prove instructive.

 

[nfitz]

Quebec now allows right-turn-on-red across the province, unless prohibited by a sign. However, on Montreal Island it remains illegal. I expect that comparison of the incident rate in Quebec outside of Montreal before and after right-turn-on-red prohibition would be instructive, especially as Montreal can be used as the control for such a study.

How can that be a valid comparison? The reason it was restricted in Montreal is that the conditions were so much different than the rest of the province - except perhaps for small areas of Hull and Quebec City - where you also find that right-on-red is restricted. In general I find that there are a lot more no-right on red signs in Quebec than I find in Ontario.

Similarly, many NYC intersections have signs permitting right-turn-on-red in the interests of easing congestion. Though a case could be made that each intersection presents a unique risk, if there is a sufficient sample size of permitting intersections, a comparison between them and the non-permitting majority may also prove instructive.

Presumably such signs are posted at locations where the general safety issues are not present, so again I don't see how the study is valid. I guess without going through these studies of yours in detail to look at the methodology, we can do nothing but be back-seat drivers here. Do you have a URL for these studies?

 

[Swamp Thing]

The reason it was restricted in Montreal is that the conditions were so much different than the rest of the province - except perhaps for small areas of Hull and Quebec City - where you also find that right-on-red is restricted.

Not exactly true. RTOR was prohibited across Quebec until recently, after one or more studies found the law to be unnecessary. Montreal island municipalities (and Quebec City?) choose to enact their own local bylaws to keep the prohibition in place:

"In the province of Quebec, turning right on a red was illegal until a pilot study carried out in 2003 showed that there were no significant adverse effects of the RTOR maneuver. Subsequently the province of Quebec now allows universal right turn on red, except where it is prohibited by a sign."

Ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red

(Maybe Montreal And Quebec City feel that their relatively large anglophone populations are poorer drivers!)

And here's (one) study, though I'm not certain it's the one referred to in the Wikipedia article::

https://ceprofs.civil.tamu.edu/dlord/Papers/TRB_3410_Lord_RTOR_Nov_2002.pdf

Still looking for the NYC study (that is apparently the basis for pending legislation to make RTOR legal in Staten Island).

 

[Swamp Thing]

No luck finding the actual NYC study (Staten Island, 2007-2008), though there are plenty of references to it.

Apparently the methodology involved allowing RTOR at 501 intersections on Staten Island for Period=X, and comparing accident data between that and the preceding Period=X.

One presumes that the findings must have been at least neutral, as a further 29 intersections have now been designated legal RTOR.

Not that these would be signed exemptions to the bylaw prohibiting RTOR, not a rescinding of the bylaw itself.

And just for fun, here's the normally-conservative NHTSA weighing in on the matter back in 1995:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/outreach/traftech/1995/TT086.htm

 

[nfitz]

Not exactly true. RTOR was prohibited across Quebec until recently, after one or more studies found the law to be unnecessary. Montreal island municipalities (and Quebec City?) choose to enact their own local bylaws to keep the prohibition in place:

"In the province of Quebec, turning right on a red was illegal until a pilot study carried out in 2003 showed that there were no significant adverse effects of the RTOR maneuver. Subsequently the province of Quebec now allows universal right turn on red, except where it is prohibited by a sign."

I'm not sure how this is any different (though certainly more detailed) that what I said. What did I say that wasn't true? I'm well aware of the history, as I did my driver's ed. and learned to drive in Quebec years ago - and still regularily drive there today.

 

[Swamp Thing]

I'm not sure how this is any different (though certainly more detailed) that what I said. What did I say that wasn't true? I'm well aware of the history, as I did my driver's ed. and learned to drive in Quebec years ago - and still regularily drive there today.

Just picking at nits, I guess. Your response read to me like you were suggesting that RTOR restrictions were never implemented outside Montreal, when in fact the restriction was imposed province-wide, then it was lifted province-wide, and finally it was reinstated for Montreal only.

I also took Driver's Ed and grew up driving in Quebec (Montreal's West Island in fact) all too many moons ago. I even took my driving test in the middle of a blizzard that would have shut down Toronto. Lost a couple of points for power-sliding around a corner, but passed nonetheless.

 

[nfitz]

when in fact the restriction was imposed province-wide, then it was lifted province-wide, and finally it was reinstated for Montreal only.

Well, too pick at nits, it was never lifted for Montreal. They had imposed the no-right on red in Montreal rule before it was lifted in the rest of the province - as far as I recall.

I also took Driver's Ed and grew up driving in Quebec (Montreal's West Island in fact) all too many moons ago. I even took my driving test in the middle of a blizzard that would have shut down Toronto. Lost a couple of points for power-sliding around a corner, but passed nonetheless.

Ah, that brings back memories; I did mine after an ice-storm (not THE ice-storm) that was so bad it had closed all the schools ... that day if you showed up, got the car around the block and back in again without doing anything daft, you got your licence. No reversing, no parallel parking, no 3-point turns ... because there was nowhere to do it!

 

[kettal]

The intersections should have a "bike box" in front of the right lane, so that bikes will stop there and prevent motorists from turning.

 

[waterloowarrior]

I wish we painted our bus and bike lanes different colours like in some European countries

 

[kettal]

The editorials in Toronto Sun are very good these days

Editorial
Car trouble spreads across cities

By PAUL BERTON

Last Updated: 11th May 2009, 5:02am


It is human nature to somehow become rude, selfish, blind and unreasonable once we get behind the wheel of an car.

So it's no surprise motorists across the country are up in arms about recent measures to make urban life easier and safer for pedestrians and cyclists.

In Toronto, there are moves to restrict right turns on red lights to reduce pedestrian injuries. In Vancouver, they want to reserve entire lanes for bicycles.

The big objection to measures such as these is that they restrict the free flow of automobiles. Traffic will become an increasing problem, commerce will be affected . . .

Unfortunately for motorists, these things are happening already, mostly because of motorists.

Even if pedestrian and cyclist deaths weren't already alarmingly high, making the streets safer and easier for them will only help everyone in the long run. Meanwhile, making life difficult for motorists is the way of the future, and the solution to many of today's urban ailments.

With the possible exception of Los Angeles, the automobile is in decline as a welcome visitor in a growing number of cities.

In London, England, you must pay a special tax to drive downtown. In Copenhagen, streets have been turned into pedestrian malls, and parking lots are now public squares.

The great cities of the world, from London to Paris to New York, are not great because cars flow freely; they are great because people can live there without them.

Even if they don't pass political hurdles, the measures in Toronto and Vancouver are coming soon to a city near you.

High oil prices could spell big trouble for our suburbs, and the planet simply cannot afford to have everyone in China or India owning an automobile.

We don't have to be futurists to see new urbanism in the future: Nobody will own a car, universal mass transit will be the easiest and most efficient way to get around densely populated areas, cities will be more compact . . .

And with any luck, we all just might be a little happier -- and perhaps more even tempered.