Toronto The Modern | ?m | 17s | Empire | DTAH

I agree that it's improved a lot over the past several years, but to many people the corner of Queen and Sherbourne is still "scary". There is a shelter or drop-in centre on Queen, just north of Sherbourne that does a brisk business, and the crowd can be pretty intimidating when there is a bunch of people there. Moss Park is no St. James Park either. I know the area well because I lived at The Richmond for many years.
I agree that the area will continue to gentrify over the next few years, including the intersection of Queen and Sherbourne, but that intersection still has a long way to go.
 
Agreed that south of Richmond, Sherbourne does get better.

I've rode by bike up the bike lane on Sherbourne for long enough though to know that the whole stretch is pretty iffy. I've seen just about everything and I no longer ride my bike any further north on Sherbourne than Shuter. I'll do anything to avoid having to cross through Sherbourne and Dundas no matter what time of day.
 
It is quite possible that I have been desensitized to it somewhat.

I ride my bike a lot through that area(Queen and Sherbourne) as well as wait for the streetcar(getting on and off) for the beaches and visiting the dollar store on Queen East and feel safe, which I didn't do five years ago. To your point however, I don't go there past midnight.

Yes there are always quite a lot of people congregated and loitering on that corner who appear to stay there the entire day and if Moss Park continues to be ringed by the highest concentration of social services, that I agree won't change anytime soon. If they disperse those social services however to other areas..

I thing that with Vu(~500 units?), Rezen(~150 units) 101 Sherbourne(~200 units), East Lofts(~130 units), 406 Adelaide(~300 units), etc. we have an influx of over 1000 dwellings in a few square blocks of a much different socio-economic background, very close to or on the edge(101 Sherbourne) of the intersection. I am not sure what the current numbers are for the neighbourhood, but it will dramatically expand. It took far less to transform King and Sherbourne.

Not that Queen and Sherbourne will be transformed to the same degree, but may have the potential within five years to shed it's current reputation.
 
I agree, and all those projects certainly represent a critical mass. I think that The Richmond was somewhat of a catalyst for that whole area, and with all of these new projects coming along the pressure to gentrify is going to intensify.
 
With the Richmond, despite Tridels reputation on this board as building fugly buildings, they attract a whole lot of buyers who buy based on the notion of don't judge a book by it's cover. They build quality and manage professionally. A building in North York that I visit often is no doubt the ugliest on that the NY strip, but I am constantly amazed at how well its run (i.e they have a composting program, condo fees are still low,etc), and how well it's laid out.

Further to expand a previous point, is that on one side we have one socio-economic status where the population density is growing (i.e purchasers of condos), and on the other side, the population is remaining static or near the same (the population of social service users) or even perhaps slightly shrinking. Critical mass would be a good word, as it may or may not be the tipping point (as Malcolm Gladwell might say) of the balance of the scale.

I am not sure if Queen St W is the appropriate example or if I know enough about it, but on an outsiders point of view, from what I have read and seen (mostly from visiting the area at night) the area around what was formerly known as the Queen Street Mental Hospital, was in my mind one of the worse areas downtown to live. The hospital is still there, but with it being renovated and re-designed, along with the gentrification of the neighbourhood, not that it is completely without its problems, but it has shed the previous stigma I had of that neighbourhood. And they did it with both being able to co-exist. I see small signs and potential for it to happen on some scale with Queen and Sherbourne.
 
Beaconer you make an excellent point about Tridel. I've nearly commented several times that although their buildings are somewhat boring, low key and sometimes misguided on the outside, the inside of their projects are where they shine. Like you said, very well managed, well soundproofed (better than average to be sure), moving to LEED certification in their new projects and excellent customer service from 3 friends who have bought into Tridel. Now if only they could raise the bar on the designs of their buildings on the outside they might be regarded with more respect. Tridel could take a lesson from a project like Minto Midtown. Well, many developers could!
 
The underlying problem here, though, remains that the City treats the Sherbourne-Jarvis-Shuter zone as a dumping ground for social services, which is an incredibly counterproductive habit and a vicious cycle; it's the easiest place to put shelters, etc. because there are already lots of shelters there, and so on. It seems rather silly to me--why would you place facilities designed to help people pull themselves out of poverty/addiction, etc. in an area where both are concentrated? Obviously there's a chicken-and-egg debate, but you get the idea.

If that part of town is ever to be really improved those facilities are going to have to be de-concentrated, and I don't mean by using them to kill areas that certain councillors feel are undesirable--viz the Fez Batik homeless shelter idea. Long-term this stuff has to be spread out, and that means all over.
 
The underlying problem here, though, remains that the City treats the Sherbourne-Jarvis-Shuter zone as a dumping ground for social services

It was a dumping area because most of the area was industrial or low income renter until quite recently. Neither of those groups hold much sway when it comes to fighting the city. With the march of condos into the area you better believe the city will have a hard time pushing more into the area.
 
And another issue is that housing in the "999 Queen" zone still forms part of a coherent low-rise "neighbourhood" continuum, whereas around Sherbourne it's more fragmented, and those low-rise residential pockets which exist (and which already gentrified back in the 70s or so; thus, they're "mature") are more akin to gated communities--Cabbagetown meets Fort Apache.

In this light, it's interesting to note that deinstitutionalization left its mark less in the immediate environs of the Queen St Mental Health Centre, than some ways to the west in the more "mixed" urban environment of Parkdale...
 
I thing that with Vu(~500 units?), Rezen(~150 units) 101 Sherbourne(~200 units), East Lofts(~130 units), 406 Adelaide(~300 units), etc. we have an influx of over 1000 dwellings in a few square blocks of a much different socio-economic background, very close to or on the edge(101 Sherbourne) of the intersection. I am not sure what the current numbers are for the neighbourhood, but it will dramatically expand. It took far less to transform King and Sherbourne.

There's talk of a condo on the parking lot behind Toronto's First Post Office. Also the building to the north on George was recently sold for 7.2 million. From what I've heard they also own the building next to it on the southeast corner of George and Richmond. No doubt another condo. And once UT world HQ opens this area will be fantastic :)
 
Scary, scary neighbourhood.
Richmond & Sherbourne is relatively quiet as far as major downtown cross-streets go. There's actually surprisingly little riff-raff from Queen St (and north). In fact, you are far more likely to get panhandled or approached at Queen W & John then Richmond E & Sherbourne.

I've lived in the area five years now and still not had a single incident.
 
When I see the social services map provided by the Garden District Resident Association:
http://www.gardendistrict.ca/in_our_garden/map_social_services.html

although the map is clearly a few years old, most of the social services in question are actually north of the Park, yet Moss Park is the congregating point and hence the current reputation it has.

So..

Where will all these new condo dwellers coming into the area, living on the edge of large park, want to walk their dogs (currently there is always a large group in St James Park), or play with their kids?

My hope would be that the park would become better used as it's intended purpose, and it would be a thriving park for many. Hopefully, with these condo developments part of their development contributions to the city would go towards Moss Park.


I forgot to mention EastSide Lofts, as well as the proposed redevelopment of the Canada House Tavern, the most impactful proposed developments for this intersection.

And ofcourse, there is the retail on the south side Queen across from Moss Park already transforming. I really like those buildings, as well as the ones on Queen east of Sherbourne. It is quite easy to see with some cleaning up, the buildings and the area would be quite beautiful and hopefully thriving.

Or perhaps this is all wishful thinking on my part.

Ironically, an article was written about the Canada House Tavern yesterday..

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http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2007/08/31/pf-4460078.html

Those were the days at the grungy old Canada House, where beers flowed and stories were told among friends
By MARK BONOKOSKI, NATIONAL AFFAIRS

"Once upon a time, there was a tavern

"Where we used to raise a glass or two

"Remember how we laughed away the hours

"Dream of all the great things we would do."

-- Mary Hopkins

Yes, those were the days, my friends, those "once upon a time" days we thought would never end. The days when there was a sign painted along the entire east-side wall of the Canada House tavern where we used to raise a glass or two.

"You've tried the rest, now try the best," it read.

It was a crock, of course. The Canada House was a dump.

But it was our dump.

The place is boarded up now, and has been since circa 2003. But there is a sign on the boarded-up entrance, recently noticed by this passerby, proclaiming that the Canada House tavern, the historic pissoir at the hardscrabble corner of Queen and Sherbourne Sts. will become a 59-unit mixed-used condominium -- step one, perhaps, in gentrifying a core-city junction that is today rife with crack addicts, lost souls and down-and-out hostel dwellers.

HOCKEY AND BEERS

Michael Cole is named on the sign as the planner.

But he doesn't work for the city any more.

So the sign is old.

Looking back, it doesn't seem like all that long ago that the Canada House doled out its cheap draught beer and its pickled eggs. But it was.

Every Friday, at noon, way back when, the boys at the Sun booked the ice at the Moss Park Arena, conveniently parked across the street from the Canada House.

The names flood back, a few of them already departed. The late Bob MacDonald, who earned the bowl-of-pudding face he wore back in his drinking and semi-pro hockey days on the East Coast. The late Patty Fullan, Bob MacDonald's partner on defence for years. The late Cam Norton. The late Roy (Shackie) Howard. All gone. Bruce Blackadar, too, was a Canada House habitue before he authored Last Call. Blackie never played hockey long, but he was "the crowd" in the stands at Moss Park, as well as the honourary convenor.

Names, names, names. Peter Worthington, Les Pyette and his brother, Nellie, Brian Vallee, Claire Hoy, Hugh Wesley, Pete Kotzer, Billy Boyd, Dr. Jim Brooks, Jac Holland, Cliff Ritchie, Rocky McCabe, Mario Sgroi, Gary Blackwood -- all still around, one hopes, although most of the skates are undoubtedly now hung up in favour of gentler pursuits.

One hour of hockey at Moss Park, and then a few hours at the Canada House, often until closing time. The place smelled of stale beer and festering urinals brimming with moth balls and cigarette butts.

It smelled as old taverns should.

Debbie MacDonald is the information director for FiveNine, the Toronto management and construction company in charge of overseeing the construction of the condominium complex where the old Canada House tavern now stands empty and idle.

"We're in a stall," she says.

OPPOSITION TO PLAN

While it is difficult to comprehend how an area so down in the dumps as the corner of Queen and Sherbourne would resist the restoration of a rat's nest like the Canada House, and the resurrection of a modern condo building with the Canada House facade, this is nonetheless what is happening.

"We want to rehabilitate something ugly and set up something quite beautiful," MacDonald says. "Yet we are getting some resistance from neighbours when it comes to re-zoning.

"We would like to break ground as soon as possible, trust me, but we have to deal with the zoning issues first."

A number of calls were placed to the city's planning department. The person who now has Michael Cole's former number -- (Cole, apparently, has moved on to work for the province) -- knows nothing about the project. And neither does the city planner who the city hall switchboard operator claimed rules the roost in that part of town.

Messages were left hither and yon. And then pay dirt was hit, and city planner Greg Pereira was suddenly on the phone -- arguing, rightly, that there is planning and then there is good planning. And, as he put it, "good planning takes time."

"There is a domino effect to planning," he said. "And a dynamic. When you do it, you want to do it right. You want to ensure that the park across the street can still get sun. You want to ensure that future development goes hand-in-hand with proposed development.

"Things change over time, and change has its own dynamics."

At city council's direction, there will be one more public consultation meeting on Sept. 11, giving area residents and future developers another opportunity to voice their concerns and put forward their suggestions.

The old Canada House, as might be suspected, was recently "listed" by city council as a heritage site. And who's to argue that?

It began its life in 1897 as the Kormann House Hotel, the innkeeper being one Frantz J. Kormann. As a reason for recently "listing" it as a heritage site worth preserving, city hall's heritage preservation services points to a design that is "a representative example of a late 19th century corner hotel ... its design highlighted by a bevelled corner, the application of Classical detailing, and the varied fenestration associated with the late 19th century Renaissance Revival style."

A LITTLE TRIVIA

But, here's a piece of trivial information that the heritage preservation might appreciate, if only for a fleeting moment.

On the day this June that city council voted to "list" the old Kormann House Hotel as a heritage site, it was also 110 years -- to the day -- that Frantz Kormann first threw open his doors at the corner of Queen and Sherbourne.

That's a lot of years, a lot of beers, and a lot of names flooding back.

"Through the door, there came familiar laughter

"I saw your face and heard you call my name

"Oh, my friend, we're older but no wiser

"For in our hearts, the dreams are still the same
 
A little gift for caltrane74 who is dying for some steel. 110 Sherbourne (it goes by a Richmond address but I'm too lazy to go outside). Will be 6 stories when complete.

IMG_4460.jpg
 

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