Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[midriser]

The photos posted by a couple members pretty much sum of the great experience the open house was. The one thing I'll say is that I never realized how much of a white elephant the Highway 407 station will be until I went up there. I mean my goodness even building a station at the Rouge National Park would be more useful than this station. 100% of this station's ridership will depend on bus connections from Viva and GO.

And from the YRT/VIVA side, there will be barely any ridership. The only route that will serve Hwy 407 station will be the 20 Jane, which will also parallel the subway extension and serve both VMC and Pioneer Village stations. There's almost nothing in the way of trip generators along Jane between VMC and Steeles, so I'd expect the majority of southbound riders would transfer to the subway at VMC for a quicker ride down to Pioneer Village station and points south, and vice versa for northbound riders.

Even if you decided to stay on route 20 to its terminus at Pionner Village and transfer to the subway there, why would you transfer halfway inbetween at Hwy 407? The one scenario in which that would make sense would if you were heading southbound and transferring to GO services, rather than taking a short one stop hop on the subway from VMC.

YRT is so unsure of ridership potential at Hwy 407 that their own planned service strategy says "Service will be monitored to determine the amount of customers using the station and whether to continue operating to the terminal."
https://www.yrt.ca/en/about-us/reso...-Strategy/2017Spadina-Subway-Strategy_407.pdf

 

[junctionist]

The aesthetic deficiencies of the concrete are not a good omen for the Eglinton Crosstown stations, which are supposed to be bare concrete throughout. That's the plan in spite of the planning goal of a "high-quality public realm". Either they're planning on using some high-quality architectural concrete of a higher standard than the platform walls of Highway 407 Station or they're lying to themselves/have no idea what they're doing from a design standpoint.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And from the YRT/VIVA side, there will be barely any ridership. The only route that will serve Hwy 407 station will be the 20 Jane, which will also parallel the subway extension and serve both VMC and Pioneer Village stations. There's almost nothing in the way of trip generators along Jane between VMC and Steeles, so I'd expect the majority of southbound riders would transfer to the subway at VMC for a quicker ride down to Pioneer Village station and points south, and vice versa for northbound riders.

Even if you decided to stay on route 20 to its terminus at Pionner Village and transfer to the subway there, why would you transfer halfway inbetween at Hwy 407? The one scenario in which that would make sense would if you were heading southbound and transferring to GO services, rather than taking a short one stop hop on the subway from VMC.

YRT is so unsure of ridership potential at Hwy 407 that their own planned service strategy says "Service will be monitored to determine the amount of customers using the station and whether to continue operating to the terminal."
https://www.yrt.ca/en/about-us/reso...-Strategy/2017Spadina-Subway-Strategy_407.pdf

I'm curious how much it costs to operate Highway 407 station, and how much could be saved by shutting it down. The station can be reopened if the Highway 407 transitway ever materializes. The station serves no purpose in its current state, and the money could be better spent elsewhere.


And yeah, I get shutting a shutting a station is controversial, but it's by no means unprecedented. We have our own abandoned station in Toronto, and other cities have plenty of shuttered stations due to low ridership. TTC shouldn't get caught up in the sunk cost fallacy to justify spending millions on a station nobody is going to use.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm curious how much it costs to operate Highway 407 station, and how much could be saved by shutting it down. The station can be reopened if the Highway 407 transitway ever materializes. The station serves no purpose in its current state, and the money could be better spent elsewhere.


And yeah, I get shutting a shutting a station is controversial, but it's by no means unprecedented. We have our own abandoned station in Toronto, and other cities have plenty of shuttered stations due to low ridership. TTC shouldn't get caught up in the sunk cost fallacy to justify spending millions on a station nobody is going to use.

To put this into perspective, the Jane bus carries only 3760 per week (537 per day). Only a fraction of those riders would be heading south into Toronto, and of those riders, an even smaller fraction would be using Highway 407 Station, because VMC Station is closer for nearly everyone along the route.

Highway 407 Station has no other trip generators, and it will be the least used station on the TTC network. It might not even break 500 riders per day. If we don't see significant usage within a year, I believe the station should be mouthballed, lest we waste even more money on this station.

 

[Hopkins123]

Too much concrete in interior of these stations..

I know, right? Even if they did not want to tile the station walls for maintenance reasons, they at least could have applied the 'modern' solution of installing those glossy wall panels like what they've implemented at York Mills, St Andrew and Osgoode Stns.

This bare bones approach to what is going to be the most visible aspect of the riding experience for most commuters passing through the stops is setting a horrible precedence and it really doesn't reflect the fact that over $3 billion was even spent on this project.

 

[steveintoronto]

How quickly people forget. From link:



This resulted in a one year delay in construction.

If this occurred in China, they would continue working without stopping for an inquiry. Here in Canada, any kind of an accident on a work-site results in a stoppage.

It was far more than just that accident. It was a clusterfug of incompetence and bad management. From your link alone:

[...]
“We put out a schedule that wasn’t achievable,” said Ross, executive director of communications for the TTC. “The fatality at the York site was a significant impact.”

The TTC has released a report indicating the altered schedule that it will present to its board of commissioners at a meeting Wednesday.

The report attributes the lengthened timeline to “major schedule impacts” including the fatal accident at the planned York University subway station construction site on the university’s campus last fall that resulted in the death of a worker.
[...]
Four charges were laid by the ministry against the companies at the beginning of October for failing to provide required safety measures at the York University site.

That, as well as start-up tunneling at the planned Hwy. 407 station, has resulted in work at various sites falling behind at the location’s five construction site by six to eight months, according to the report.

Funding delays, which left the TTC without a lack of advance money for unanticipated construction snags, also played a role, in addition to unanticipated changes to station designs and concepts. Those added between three and seven months to the schedule.

Another negative impact on construction of the line resulted from the slow response from non-municipal owners in relocating utilities like sewers and watermains.
[...]

And it wasn't just this project alone, it was a series of them behind time, over-budget, poorly planned and not up to what was promised, aesthetically or performance wise.

Contrast that to TTC projects pre-amalgamation.

The aesthetic deficiencies of the concrete are not a good omen for the Eglinton Crosstown stations, which are supposed to be bare concrete throughout.

This is going to be interesting. Concrete can look superb. It's not the medium at fault, it's the artist, Even road barriers can look good out of plain-old concrete if done right.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

To put this into perspective, the Jane bus carries only 3760 per week (537 per day). Only a fraction of those riders would be heading south into Toronto, and of those riders, an even smaller fraction would be using Highway 407 Station, because VMC Station is closer for nearly everyone along the route.

Highway 407 Station has no other trip generators, and it will be the least used station on the TTC network. It might not even break 500 riders per day. If we don't see significant usage within a year, I believe the station should be mouthballed, lest we waste even more money on this station.

To put this in further perspective, our current least used station (Bessarion) carries 3,000 people per day. Highway 407 would be lucky to have a sixth the ridership. There are probably hudreds of bus and streetcar stops in the city that have greater ridership than Highway 407. The lack of ridership at this station is going to be unprecedented.

 

[Hopkins123]

To put this in further perspective, our current least used station (Bessarion) carries 3,000 people per day. Highway 407 would be lucky to have a sixth the ridership. There are probably hudreds of bus and streetcar stops in the city that have greater ridership than Highway 407. The lack of ridership at this station is going to be unprecedented.

It all fairness though, BT, GO and YRT/Viva could artificially 'create' a lot of demand simply by having all their express routes terminate at the 407 Station instead of at the alternative stops and force commuters to use the subway to connect to other destinations.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It all fairness though, BT, GO and YRT/Viva could artificially 'create' a lot of demand simply by having all their express routes terminate at the 407 Station instead of at the alternative stops and force commuters to use the subway to connect to other destinations.

Creating artificial route terminals and transfer points isn't the thing to do if we want optimal user experience and value for money. However, it's exactly what a government looking to prevent controversy would do.

 

[steveintoronto]

It all fairness though, BT, GO and YRT/Viva could artificially 'create' a lot of demand simply by having all their express routes terminate at the 407 Station instead of at the alternative stops and force commuters to use the subway to connect to other destinations.

Creating artificial route terminals and transfer points isn't the thing to do if we want optimal user experience and value for money. However, it's exactly what a government looking to prevent controversy would do.

The station could be renamed "Kirby East" and we can all pretend it was just all a misunderstanding...

 

[Richard White]

The lack of ridership at this station is going to be unprecedented.

I wonder if low ridership on this section of the line will be a blessing in disguise. If the TTC does end up having low ridership on this portion of the line they could have ammunition for doing what they did with the University Line and have limited hours of service.

Despite this being a TTC owned and operated line I can see the previous pressure from the Liberals making this an election issue if it becomes a white elephant. IIRC Greg Sorbara was the driving force behind the extension which was in his riding. You can bet your ass that if ridership is low in the first few months that people will be all over it.

As much as there was pressure to build it, I can see there being pressure to boost the ridership or limit the service. The last thing the current government wants is a billion dollar white elephant subway extension hanging over them during an election. They would do anything to make it go away even if meant closing it to save their sinking ship.

 

[M II A II R II K]

So Bessarion will have to give up its crown.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I wonder if low ridership on this section of the line will be a blessing in disguise. If the TTC does end up having low ridership on this portion of the line they could have ammunition for doing what they did with the University Line and have limited hours of service.

Yes. Depending on the ridership, I would be supportive of terminating late night, early morning and sunday service on the extension between Finch West and VMC or York U and VMC, as we did with the University Line when it opens. There's no reason for trains to be serving VMC at 1 am. 7 AM to 9 PM service, Monday to Saturday (no Sunday service) is fine for VMC

Service at Highway 407 should be completely terminated, until the Highway 407 transitway is built (this might be several decades). This'll save the TTC several million dollars annually, that could go towards more productive service enhancements.

Then there's also the low ridership Downsview Park Station, which I strongly suspect will also have less ridership than Bessarion, but I'll wait to see if the industrial areas to the east generate significant ridership.

 

[M II A II R II K]

York Region can pay to keep those stations open.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

York Region can pay to keep those stations open.

They should. I don't know why they would, but they can if they want it open.

I expect Highway 407 will be a big controversy when it opens. The low ridership will definitely be noteworthy, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Councillors attempt to have the low ridership station closed in response. I wouldn't expect Toronto taxpayers to be willing to pay for a subway station with no usage within their own borders, let alone one in a completely different municipality.