Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

Sheppard West should not be built at all. Build an underground moving sidewalk from Downsview or Finch West to a new GO station on the Bradford line if the TTC insists on a connection.

It's not all about making the GO connection... Sheppard West is listed as a Metrolinx Major Transit Exchange & Potential Gateway Hub. I question if it will be successful at opening up Downsview Park, but it might be able to make the industrial area off of Chesswood more transit friendly. Active transit in industrial areas has always been a weakness, and it will give us experience on what kind of measures are needed to get more factory workers to ride the bus.
 
I would think moving walkways of that length, particularly underground, would cost a whole lot more than a station too. Using Spadina's tunnel's for a reference, a set of 2, 450-ft long movators would cost $2-million. The length of a walkway from either station to the same point would probably be 5 or 6 times the length of the Spadina walkway, which means it would cost at least $10-million for the movators alone, plus the cost of tunnel... so I'm going to guess $20-million or so.

...oh and I don't think a moving sidewalk will encourage development of a TOD like Sheppard West is planned to do...


:rolleyes:
 
I like Hazel's fiscal prudence.

However you can't blame her for making her city suburban. Try talking in 1990 about creating LRT lines in Mississauga and you would be out off office in no time.

Bingo... Mississauga worked just fine in the times of cheap gas - driving a car is much more convienient than taking the subway.

Granted high gas prices have made Mississauga lose some of it's lustre, but once electric and alternative-fuel cars become more common place, people will go back to realizing how convienient of a city it is.
 
It will be buried between about Black Creek and Laird. The rest of the alignment will depend on the choice of technology, and we'll know more about that in 22 days when the draft RTP is released.
 
once electric and alternative-fuel cars become more common place, people will go back to realizing how convienient of a city it is.

That is, if we don't have power shortages that make the California grid look well-managed.
 
I hope we experiment with lighting with the extension station designs, like how they've drenched Heathrow T4 Tube Station or the new T5 Express station with LED lighting on trackside:

T5 Express:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2020/2368770131_450d2e87de.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2553320864_41542d51bc_o.jpg

T4 Refitted:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3290/2368769989_42f7945127.jpg

wow! that looks great! probably didn't cost that much either.
 
I did mean elaborate in size and complexity, not design.

Sheppard West's GO connection is (let's be honest here) only theoretically useful, and there's basically no potential for ridership growth in the industrial units along Chesswood...it's Downsview Park, especially the proposed condo blocks, that will add some riders. Sheppard West may never have more than 10,000 rides a day but that's fine...it's not a competition.

I'm thinking that the York U stop will be larger because ridership will be higher and you'll need that extra space to deal with the crowds and the fire code requirements about the space such a crowd needs. However, stations like Sheppard West clearly should not be built to the same scale as a York U or a Finch.

York U should be a modest station, like Lawrence without the mezzanine layer, or College with a second entrance (I'd suggest something like Wellesley but all stations should have an entrance at each end). York U won't be amongst the most-used stations like Finch because it'll lack feeder buses...students tend to flow in and out of campi steadily all day rather than in compact 9-5 bunches like office workers, so no special designs to accommodate huge crowds should be necessary. Finch is enormous but its size is understandable given the YRT/GO terminal...stations like Leslie are inexcusably overbuilt.

If stations "need" to be the size of an open pit mine because the platforms need to be deep, we should be looking at surface/trench/elevated options instead of obsessing over tunnels (part of this obsession is merely a desire to make subways seem "too expensive" as an excuse for not "giving" one to each ward/municipality/neighbourhood). Leslie should have been a surface/elevated station...if it was higher up, Bayview/Bessarion wouldn't have needed to be so deep (seeing Bayview and Leslie's vast mezzanines lit up with dozens of lights is truly saddening).

This type of "what if we do X and Y and save $50 million?" discussion was totally absent from the Spadina extension and its ridiculous price tag is frequently used to justify eschewing subway construction, whereas an streamlined extension with practical cheapenings could have been used as a model for future frugal and efficient projects. No one actually cares what the subway looks like...some people say "oh, added aesthetic elements only add like 10% to the cost" but virtually all transit users would rather have a 10% larger system. I don't think there's anyone in the entire city who would take the TTC if only every station looked like Downsview. Ideally, people aren't in stations long enough to appreciate their design, anyway; they're swifted away on trains and buses.
 
Aesthetics don't attract steady ridership, but they do make the experience more pleasant, and boost civic pride. There's always a wait for a train when it can be taken in. Waits for the bus can be longer. Good design also boosts the profile of the means of transportation. If the subway looks elaborate, than it reminds people that this isn't just for the people who can't afford a car, but a worthy alternative. So build a smaller station where the demand is lower, above ground if possible, but the ceiling can still be high, and the station could still be attractive.

People do have an interest in this, as indicated by response that Spacing received during the preservation debate. Some cities have elaborate systems that have become attractions in their own right. They make the city look better.
 
Stations can be attractive without budgets ballooning out of control or spending extra on aesthetics or palatial qualities. Don Mills is not unattractive because the platform walls aren't tiled. Even if more people were lured to the TTC via station aesthetics* (they're not), there's no room for them on the vehicles. Not that we can keep what we have maintained, anyway...and cleanliness certainly does affect ridership.

The Spacing crowd was responding to the original, efficient, simple Modern stations, not the bloated, wasteful recent stations (in time, though, internet groups will spring up to save Leslie's tiles). The older stations don't have veritable tentacles of hallways extending out in every direction that need to be cleaned and lit. If other cities sacrifice their transit system for the sake of design, their systems are probably the result of dictators showing off. We shouldn't permit ballooning construction costs on the basis of "that's ok, it'll be marginally more attractive." Open-pit mine stations might be nice and airy, but an attractive platform tile pattern could be just as aesthetically satisfying, only it'd add practically nothing to the budget.

*normal aesthetics or corporate design...a station with Picassos on the wall or tiled with gold would attract tourists.
 
No more open pit mines, unless demand justifies it.

I never advocated overbuilding stations, I just wanted a taller platform ceiling and greater attention to detail with the artwork. It really shouldn't cost that much. It would really improve the experience. Stockholm and even Montreal have done it.

As I recall the Spacing conversations were centred around the Bloor Danforth tiles because they were most at risk. Pape and Danforth and are to be significantly altered soon. Yet every station is important in the pattern and consistency of the original design. There were some calls to restore and enhance. There's no "modernization" coming for Leslie, hence no preservation discussion.
 
That is, if we don't have power shortages that make the California grid look well-managed.
I have plenty of confidence in our ability to produce electricity. First of all there are an infinite number of ways to produce it and tie it into the grid, unlike the few sources we have left for oil.

Not to mention that Canada is the most uranium-rich country in the world. Plus with new wind and solar technologies in the works, I think we're fine.

Like I said, alternative fuel cars will come and remind us why we all moved the suburbs in the first place. People will go back to living their happy lives in their big houses, and people in more urban areas will continue to mock them out of jealousy or insecurity or whatever legit reasons they have.
 

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