Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[44 North]

@tj We're not talking about any random corridor. We're talking about Jane, and I guess Major Mack. No BRT has been built, let alone unplanned one day conversion to LRT. So in other words they're going from bus plans to plans for heavy rail subway.

 

[LNahid2000]

Which lines are you referring to? I can notice a marked advantage for purple east especially during rush hour. Sure there are still issues with traffic signalling and construction but fundamentally, this is a BRT no question.
obviously Blue is a different story because until ph2 gets to them, its a BRT-lite with queue jump lanes and spaced stops

btw heres an official definition if youre wondering. VIVA purple clearly falls into this category:

https://www.itdp.org/library/standards-and-guides/the-bus-rapid-transit-standard/what-is-brt/

Viva Purple fits most of the definition, but not the 'Intersection Treatments' section. Giving left turners priority over buses, and the lack of signal priority is where it fails.

 

[cplchanb]

Viva Purple fits most of the definition, but not the 'Intersection Treatments' section. Giving left turners priority over buses, and the lack of signal priority is where it fails.

once again that is issue with regards to programming which I agree with but imo its not a fundamental item to disqualify. Besides, if you were let left turners go free for all during the green phase it wouldnt be much use anyways because of the large rd and the number of cars. On top of that it would impede on bus priority because now youre allowing cars to block bus movement . I think the intersection treatment is for small roads. hwy 7 intersections are for large connecting roads. It would be impossible to cut off leslie, E/WBC and woodbine from hwy 7 completely. If you were use this as a limiting factor then you would be cancelling out the majority of "real" BRT systems around the world too

 

[LNahid2000]

once again that is issue with regards to programming which I agree with but imo its not a fundamental item to disqualify. Besides, if you were let left turners go free for all during the green phase it wouldnt be much use anyways because of the large rd and the number of cars. On top of that it would impede on bus priority because now youre allowing cars to block bus movement . I think the intersection treatment is for small roads. hwy 7 intersections are for large connecting roads. It would be impossible to cut off leslie, E/WBC and woodbine from hwy 7 completely. If you were use this as a limiting factor then you would be cancelling out the majority of "real" BRT systems around the world too

My point was that the left turn phase should be after a bus passes through (i.e. after the green phase) rather than having the bus wait for left turners.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

BMO - thanks for some sanity.

I woul dn't call Viva BRT. If you actually use it, it's pretty damn slow. The only real BRT in the GTA is the Mississauga Transitway, and maybe the York U busway.

In the dictionary, under the definition of BRT is a picture of Viva. Bus-only lanes, special vehicles, fewer stops, signal prioritization...
But whatever; it's "pretty damn slow."

@tj We're not talking about any random corridor. We're talking about Jane, and I guess Major Mack. No BRT has been built, let alone unplanned one day conversion to LRT. So in other words they're going from bus plans to plans for heavy rail subway.

No. you're focusing on a single specific to make your point. You said, for the fifth time, that York Region/Vaughan are focusing their planning on the most-expensive form of transit (etc. etc.) at the expense of other, more affordable modes. I pointed out that, in point of fact, the spine of York Region's transit system is a BRT - which is a low-cost mode - and that even the planned Yonge and TYSSE subways barely inch their way into York Region.

You're simply giving way too much credence to Vaughan's pipe dream OP, which has as much provincial backing as any Fantasy Map you can find on Urban Toronto. And if you want it put in context - AGAIN - you can look at what BMO wrote or remember, that just before, on Page 334, we both presented EAs for TWO major transit plans that never came to be. I don't know how much more proof there can be that, again, it's toothless and meaningless.

Curious - yes! But meaningless and totally a red herring in discussions of how much Vaughan is or isn't committed to VMC which, AGAIN, is the core point you raised.

 

[44 North]

No. you're focusing on a single specific to make your point. You said, for the fifth time, that York Region/Vaughan are focusing their planning on the most-expensive form of transit (etc. etc.) at the expense of other, more affordable modes. I pointed out that, in point of fact, the spine of York Region's transit system is a BRT - which is a low-cost mode - and that even the planned Yonge and TYSSE subways barely inch their way into York Region.

You're simply giving way too much credence to Vaughan's pipe dream OP, which has as much provincial backing as any Fantasy Map you can find on Urban Toronto. And if you want it put in context - AGAIN - you can look at what BMO wrote or remember, that just before, on Page 334, we both presented EAs for TWO major transit plans that never came to be. I don't know how much more proof there can be that, again, it's toothless and meaningless.

Curious - yes! But meaningless and totally a red herring in discussions of how much Vaughan is or isn't committed to VMC which, AGAIN, is the core point you raised.

Hm, but that's not what really happened on the previous page. I made a point to E.S that Toronto, in light of the high costs of heavy rail subway expansion, started to explore other similar railed transit modes that are more cost-effective in an expansive suburban environment (e.g ICTS, ALRT, light rail). Then I noted how York Region hasn't explored these modes prior to any subway plan.

Sometime thereafter you chimed in with a point about how BRT or BRT-lite counts as an affordable railed alternative to subways, particularly since it can (one day, maybe) be upgraded to LRT. You followed this by posting an image of BRT to prove that I was wrong about their pre-subway plans for Jane. But that was a red herring, because what you posted isn't what's planned for Jane or Major Mack. That BRT plan (Viva Silver) seems to be mostly or entirely a mixed traffic bus with some signal priority. In other words it's pretty much just a bus... which they'd like to upgrade to a 7-car subway.

I'm beginning to wonder if you know what the term "red herring" means.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Sometime thereafter you chimed in with a point about how BRT or BRT-lite counts as an affordable railed alternative to subways, particularly since it can (one day, maybe) be upgraded to LRT. You followed this by posting an image of BRT to prove that I was wrong about their pre-subway plans for Jane.

Never happened. Go back and find it. Find me saying anything about BRT and Jane street anywhere, ever. Find me using the phrase "BRT-lite," except in response to your using it. Find me using the phrase "affordable railed alternative" or any variation. The image was posted because after I mentioned that Viva - not the subway - was the prime planning mode for York Region, you called it "BRT lite" and "curbside." Obviously it's neither.

(FWIW, my recollection is their pre-subway plans for Jane entailed an extension of the planned Transit City LRT. I forget how far north they wanted it to go but I expect it was to Rutherford/Wonderland. this was before the hospital site was picked or they'd have gone further, I'm sure.)

I did say - as did others - that the Viva stations and ROW were designed for future conversion to LRT. This is is a fact. As I jokingly said above, no one is advocating for a Highway 7 subway (not even Vaughan, so far!), if the density one day justifies it, that rapidway can be turned into an LRT with relative ease. That's all I said.

You're just not connecting the dots because you keep repeating the same hardwired points without absorbing new facts or context. You couldn't even deign to agree with me when I said, "At least we agree on..." nor accept it when I thanked you and asked if you could provide a link to a report. I don't know what you're on about at least 65% of the time.

No one here is defending a subway up to Wonderland - a subway which isn't even conceptual though, yes, I thanked you for bringing its existence into the discussion since I haven't seen it here before - but you keep harping on it as proof VMC won't happen. That's all that's really going on. It's a "red herring" (i.e. it's irrelevant to discussions of whether VMC can develop as planned, especially by 2031) because an impossible subway Vaughan council "wants" has no impact on VMC because it's not real and even it was it would be 20-30 years away. Maybe we can take a deep breath and reset the whole discussion.

 

[Dan416]

I can't believe there's all this straight-faced talk about expanding ever deeper into York Region, whereas people want to take away Sheppard and Scarborough's subways. And subways to Mississauga are dismissed out of hand. No wonder transit planning is a mess in the region. It's not done rationally.

 

[GenerationW]

Sad to say, but at this particular point in time I have more confidence in York Region getting this insane subway loop off the ground than Toronto doing much of anything with the DRL.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the heavy rail subway were to continue on past Vaughan Metropolitan Centre Station, they would continue on the TTC's fare. If they transferred to a LRT, they would be paying another fare. Those who want the heavy rail, don't want to pay another fare. However, the costs to use heavy rail will have to be subsidized by the property taxpayers in York Region.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I can't believe there's all this straight-faced talk about expanding ever deeper into York Region, whereas people want to take away Sheppard and Scarborough's subways. And subways to Mississauga are dismissed out of hand. No wonder transit planning is a mess in the region. It's not done rationally.

Throwing them all in the same pile isn't really fair. There isn't much "straight-faced talk" about extending the subway, at least not here. Personally, I think going north of VMC with heavy rail is as sensible as building the Scarborough line with heavy rail. The difference is that the former is just some squiggly line Vaughan drew on a map that is not remotely near reality, and the other was approved by Toronto City Council - after FOUR reversals and the endorsement of a tax to pay for it that the mayor didn't understand, following a totally disingenuous debate.

So, yes, rational decision making is a big problem with transit planning in this region, but Toronto is ahead of everyone else there, I'm sorry to say. It's also irrational to say Mississauga or Scarborough should have a subway because downtown or Vaughan do; just judge each on its own merits, or lack thereof.

Sad to say, but at this particular point in time I have more confidence in York Region getting this insane subway loop off the ground than Toronto doing much of anything with the DRL.

Yup. Indeed, let us not forget that it's only because of York Region's aggressive transit-oriented development plans that Toronto even remembered the DRL plans once existed. So if they do build it, it won't be because they anticipated a capacity problem generations ago and managed to address it. It will likely be too little and too late.

Torontonians like to gripe about York Region getting all this transit money but the fact is they came up with a plan, got the money and executed it. Toronto got the money and spent a decade sitting on its hands, having wasteful, ill-informed debates about how to do less with it.

If the heavy rail subway were to continue on past Vaughan Metropolitan Centre Station, they would continue on the TTC's fare. If they transferred to a LRT, they would be paying another fare. Those who want the heavy rail, don't want to pay another fare. However, the costs to use heavy rail will have to be subsidized by the property taxpayers in York Region.

I don't know why some people assume that the fare structure in 2041 will be the same as it is in 2015. I'll be surprised if the fare structure is the same in 2017 as it is in 2015. Even IF the subway got extended, you're looking at like 2040-2050 and it's more likely that people will be traveling in automated, flying cars than that they will be transferring and paying a second fare. (I find Steve Munro is also often guilty of this - explaining why something won't work in the future based on present circumstances that are already outdated and certain to change...)

 

[dowlingm]

I can't believe there's all this straight-faced talk about expanding ever deeper into York Region, whereas people want to take away Sheppard and Scarborough's subways.

 

[BMO]

Sad to say, but at this particular point in time I have more confidence in York Region getting this insane subway loop off the ground than Toronto doing much of anything with the DRL.

I think Toronto council is more split on transit issues than York Region (although I admit I don't follow much, I just doesn't seem like as big of a hot-button issue up there). Having a council that backs one plan and works towards one instead of changing it every day helps I'm sure.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think Toronto council is more split on transit issues than York Region (although I admit I don't follow much, I just doesn't seem like as big of a hot-button issue up there). Having a council that backs one plan and works towards one instead of changing it every day helps I'm sure.

In fairness, that's partly due to simple politics. York Region council is more out of the spotlight than local councils and the councillors don't represent wards AND they get to install their own chairman. So, it's much easier to achieve "consensus." There's good things about that and bad things. They have been very consistent in their approach for a while now and even they seemed quite caught off-guard when the province announced the Yonge subway extension funding.

That said, I do get the sense they are drifting from these long-established principles. As 44North would be happy to agree, they have not been holding municipal feet to the fire when it comes to not opening new lands to development etc. There are all sorts of potential reasons for this shift, and all sorts of potential implications that go beyond this thread.

I bet 99% of Vaughan residents have no clue council "wants" the Spadina subway to go up to Wonderland and loop over. Viva has gotten some push-back in the construction phase (especially on Centre Street, but that's also another story) but overall it's coming out as they planned. when you consider they got their $ at the same time Toronto got it for Transit City, they deserve some kudos for sticking to their guns.

If the current council is making moves that undermine the previous work (e.g opening more sprawl-lands in Vaughan just when VMC is getting going), that will unfold and become clearer over time.

 

[Palma]

Sure that benefits Toronto. But that won't fix the $15 million+ hole in the budget.

Well perhaps citizens that live in Toronto could have those jobs and that would benefit Torontians even more I'd say