Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[WislaHD]

I wouldn't preclude the possibility of the future necessitating higher order transit deep into York. In fact, arguably it existed even a century ago in the form of radial streetcars.

However, there is absolutely zero need for it to be tunneled. It can be provided as a surface corridor, and it can be provided without Line 1 extensions.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Wasn't looping the Spadina line with the Yonge line across Steeles semi-seriously proposed a few decades ago? It looks like the same concept is rearing its head again, just a heck of a lot further north.

Yeah, not that long ago. Best place to find old transit plans is Ed Levy's website.
*warning: looking at this image may cause tears of sadness**

Growing up near Steeles, I always thought that the loop was a good idea. Looking at the current pattern of growth, I think that would have been short-sighted and I think 7 is the natural terminal. IF you were doing a loop, I would do it there.

If York Region is serious about achieving that kind of density that far north, they shouldn't have set their intensification target at 40%.

I was 5 when we moved to Yonge and Steeles in 1969. The subway ended at Eglinton. Yonge from the 401 to Steeles was just a row of 2 storey retail buildings with a mix of strip malls and car dealerships. Steeles was a farm road from Yonge to York University and beyond. Everything north of Steeles here was basically farmland save for some industrial along Hwy 7. 45 years later the area is an entirely new world. Who's to say in the next 45 years there won't be a reason to extend Spadina to Richmond Hill? May seem silly now but with the growth the region is experiencing it may certainly be something to look at at some point.

this is true and I find many people get stuck on what's there TODAY as if the TTC going to Finch wasn't also effectively a "subway to nowhere." But there's not a lot of greenfield where this loop is; it's a lot of relatively new business park that would have to go. Can it happen by 2045? Sure, I suppose. But I don't think it will unless the current planned growth centres (i.e. VMC, Markham and RHC/Langstaff) have come to fruition.

I wouldn't preclude the possibility of the future necessitating higher order transit deep into York. In fact, arguably it existed even a century ago in the form of radial streetcars.
However, there is absolutely zero need for it to be tunneled. It can be provided as a surface corridor, and it can be provided without Line 1 extensions.

Yeah, people forget about the radial cars that used to go all the way up to Oak Ridges. Looking out to 2050 I could imagine a subway being justified as far north as Yonge/Major Mac but anything else - including north on Jane or north of Major Mac on Yonge, I find it really hard to see anything other than LRT as being justified. Indeed, I think it would be beneficial to developing a proper urban streetscape on a road like Jane or Rutherford. A subway under Rutherford really seems absurd. (But, hey, there's people who think a subway to Yonge/7 is absurd, so I guess it's all relative.)

 

[44 North]

Wasn't looping the Spadina line with the Yonge line across Steeles semi-seriously proposed a few decades ago? It looks like the same concept is rearing its head again, just a heck of a lot further north.

Yessiree. I read the EA (from '94 I believe), and the idea was sound and was very seriously considered. Usually these things don't get past the conceptual idea or vague report, but that it had a completed EA shows that it had legs.

I was 5 when we moved to Yonge and Steeles in 1969. The subway ended at Eglinton. Yonge from the 401 to Steeles was just a row of 2 storey retail buildings with a mix of strip malls and car dealerships. Steeles was a farm road from Yonge to York University and beyond. Everything north of Steeles here was basically farmland save for some industrial along Hwy 7. 45 years later the area is an entirely new world. Who's to say in the next 45 years there won't be a reason to extend Spadina to Richmond Hill? May seem silly now but with the growth the region is experiencing it may certainly be something to look at at some point.

My take on the idea of 'building for the future' is that heavy rail mass transit (particularly when built underground) can only go so far. Many of the grand plans from Metro we're used to seeing by now, although very bold, were mostly based off non-subway modes. Intermediate capacity, ALRT, or plain light rail. These have much lower per km costs, and can offer the exact same service as a subway. People can scoff at the idea that Metro wanted a belt line system from Malvern to the 427, or a circulator, or RT lines paralleling suburban highways. But the planners at the time fully accepted that heavy rail subways couldn't ever perform that role due to the reality of capital and op costs.

What I'm seeing with York Region's plans is the complete ignoring of these lighter modes, and going straight to hands-down the most costly and absurd. So I think it speaks volumes about how realistic their plans are.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

What I'm seeing with York Region's plans is the complete ignoring of these lighter modes, and going straight to hands-down the most costly and absurd. So I think it speaks volumes about how realistic their plans are.

Except of course, ahem, for the BRT system they have been building since 2005, right?

 

[44 North]

Except of course, ahem, for the BRT system they have been building since 2005, right?

A curbside "BRT" (planned or otherwise) carrying a few hundred passengers/day does not equate to a heavy rail subway. Nor does it equate to an intermediate capacity light metro, ALRT, or LRT. One is on the lowest end of the transit spectrum, the others are not.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Except of course, ahem, for the BRT system they have been building since 2005, right?

The one part of the plan that has remained BRT since planning... VIVA blue has become the Yonge extension and even VIVA Orange has become part of the Spandina extension.

The idea that the subway should extend to Wonderland or even Major Mackenzie is just another Up Modeing of the VIVA plans

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

A curbside "BRT" (planned or otherwise) carrying a few hundred passengers/day does not equate to a heavy rail subway. Nor does it equate to an intermediate capacity light metro, ALRT, or LRT. One is on the lowest end of the transit spectrum, the others are not.

Curbside BRT? Viva is a proper BRT though, yeah, the first phase (which started in 2005) was curbside. Anyway, the point is that York Region's planning over the past 15 years has been primarily centred around a BRT which, as you point out, is at the lower end of the transit spectrum. The two planned subways into York Region right now travel about 3km into a region that's, I dunno, 60 km top to bottom?
Lately, yes, they're focusing more on subways but it's not fair to imply all their planning is centred around the most expensive mode and ignoring lesser ones.

The one part of the plan that has remained BRT since planning... VIVA blue has become the Yonge extension and even VIVA Orange has become part of the Spandina extension.
The idea that the subway should extend to Wonderland or even Major Mackenzie is just another Up Modeing of the VIVA plans

That's not entirely fair. Only a small part of Viva Blue has been "up-moded" and even if they built a subway all the way to Major Mac, Blue goes up to Newmarket. And they're not asking for a subway on Highway 7 (so far!).

I'd certainly agree with this much: YR seems to be getting a bit subway happy and losing perspective. Part of the allure of Viva is that it's LRT-upgradable so they should be looking at corridors where that seems likely before looking at subways up to the Oak Ridges Moraine.

 

[44 North]

Curbside BRT? Viva is a proper BRT though, yeah, the first phase (which started in 2005) was curbside. Anyway, the point is that York Region's planning over the past 15 years has been primarily centred around a BRT which, as you point out, is at the lower end of the transit spectrum. The two planned subways into York Region right now travel about 3km into a region that's, I dunno, 60 km top to bottom?
Lately, yes, they're focusing more on subways but it's not fair to imply all their planning is centred around the most expensive mode and ignoring lesser ones.

You can write an essay on your theories, but the reality is that Vaughan wants a heavy rail subway along Jane to Major Mack under construction by 2031. That's the reality. And contrary to your belief, they're very much supported by York Region.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

You can write an essay on your theories, but the reality is that Vaughan wants a heavy rail subway along Jane to Major Mack under construction by 2031. That's the reality. And contrary to your belief, they're very much supported by York Region.

There's no theory. I don't even know what you're talking about - you keep talking about what "Vaughan" "wants" as if it's an actual thing. Its council put in a request to have the subway go up there. End of story. It can be changed with a vote of council, ignored by Metrolinx and rendered meaningless in any one of a hundred other ways. But, yes, it's a dotted line on an official map - much like the dotted lines on the Steeles loop we both just posted that also never became reality. I want a million dollars and transporter technology - how does that reality affect anything? The reality of desire is no kind of reality.

In the meantime, you explicitly claim they're ignoring cheaper, less-intensive forms of transit when the reality is (whether anyone wants it or not) they are building a BRT system. Aren't they? That's all I'm saying: some of their current subway "requests" are ridiculous but that does not erase the fact York Region is building a BRT.

 

[44 North]

There's no theory. I don't even know what you're talking about - you keep talking about what "Vaughan" "wants" as if it's an actual thing. Its council put in a request to have the subway go up there. End of story. It can be changed with a vote of council, ignored by Metrolinx and rendered meaningless in any one of a hundred other ways. But, yes, it's a dotted line on an official map - much like the dotted lines on the Steeles loop we both just posted that also never became reality. I want a million dollars and transporter technology - how does that reality affect anything? The reality of desire is no kind of reality.

In the meantime, you explicitly claim they're ignoring cheaper, less-intensive forms of transit when the reality is (whether anyone wants it or not) they are building a BRT system. Aren't they? That's all I'm saying: some of their current subway "requests" are ridiculous but that does not erase the fact York Region is building a BRT.

Just yesterday you had no idea about any of this. I've showed you a subway extension up Jane is in their OP (which YR endorsed), that Vaughan put in a formal request (i.e not a "toothless comment") to have this subway prioritized and u/c sometime before 2031, and just today we've learned that York Region has included this subway extension as a much larger subway expansion in their Transportation Master Plan.

And just like with yesterday, I'm pointing out something else: they aren't proposing any other rail mode for that subway route. You bringing up BRT lite as yet another attempt at an apples-to-apples comparison does not work. I don't know why you're arguing with me when I write that they're ignoring light rail in place of a heavy rail subway, because it's blatantly clear that they are.

 

[cplchanb]

Just yesterday you had no idea about any of this. I've showed you a subway extension up Jane is in their OP (which YR endorsed), that Vaughan put in a formal request (i.e not a "toothless comment") to have this subway prioritized and u/c sometime before 2031, and just today we've learned that York Region has included this subway extension as a much larger subway expansion in their Transportation Master Plan.

And just like with yesterday, I'm pointing out something else: they aren't proposing any other rail mode for that subway route. You bringing up BRT lite as yet another attempt at an apples-to-apples comparison does not work. I don't know why you're arguing with me when I write that they're ignoring light rail in place of a heavy rail subway, because it's blatantly clear that they are.

well to be fair, they havnt ignored light rail completely as their brt routes are more or less built with future conversion in mind. I recall back on their old website that they outlined a vision that Ph2 would be a ground work for a future LRT should the need arise (ROW, large stations). Thus essentially theyve future proofed the existing and new infrastructure. The only thing that may need to be changed is the hwy 7 and bayview stop. All else they can pretty much rip up the road and lay track without disturbing traffic and in short order compared to Eglinton and Finch.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Just yesterday you had no idea about any of this. I've showed you a subway extension up Jane is in their OP (which YR endorsed), that Vaughan put in a formal request (i.e not a "toothless comment") to have this subway prioritized and u/c sometime before 2031, and just today we've learned that York Region has included this subway extension as a much larger subway expansion in their Transportation Master Plan.

...You bringing up BRT lite as yet another attempt at an apples-to-apples comparison does not work. I don't know why you're arguing with me when I write that they're ignoring light rail in place of a heavy rail subway, because it's blatantly clear that they are.

I was determined to just let you slide already but you're too non-sensical.
Viva is BRT-LITE? What on earth are you talking about? In your mind is it a curbside service??!

you can't even understand the context of what I'm saying!!! It's not apples-to-oranges. It's very simple. YOU said that York Region is only building and planning for subways - the most expensive form of transit. I pointed out that they are also - very obviously! - building a BRT system - and not a curbside system or an imaginary system to be built in 2055 on Mars but an actual system with bus lanes so I don't know what you're on about there. That's it! It couldn't be simpler or more easily provable.

You want a picture?

Not curbside, not BRT-lite, not a subway. End of story.
(and it was designed to be LRT-upgradable so you're like, triply wrong. Maybe quadruple but I lost count.)

As for the first part - if you can't understand why "formal requests" by council are toothless, I can't help you. There are probably good books about governance in Ontario at your local library. I'll just point out Vaughan doesn't have the $10B or whatever it will take to build that thing. It's not happening. Even if the province granted their "formal request" to have the project "prioritized by 2031" (whatever that means), it's not getting built for generations.

And even it all that happened (and it wont!) your entire premise - to go back here- was that asking for that subway proves Vaughan is not committed to VMC, which does not logically follow.

Beyond that, I canx anymore because my forehead is getting sore from all the slapping.

 

[LNahid2000]

I wouldn't call Viva BRT. If you actually use it, it's pretty damn slow. The only real BRT in the GTA is the Mississauga Transitway, and maybe the York U busway.

 

[BMO]

RE: North 44

Toronto's official Transportation Master Plan used to have a Sheppard subway from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre. I don't see that plan happening anytime soon. Plans are put forward as a rough blueprint for what municipalities would like to see. They serve as a guideline and are often a reflection what the people putting the plans forward envision for the future of their city. A lot of the time you'll see the long-term aspects of TMPs really just being pie-in-the-sky thinking because we really don't KNOW what will happen in 2041. For all we know by 2041 automated personal vehicles will signal the end of suburban subway expansion, or maybe a new form of technology will come. The furthest horizon year is really more of a "we would like to attempt this" than a "we are 100% committed to this". The DRL wasn't on Toronto's Transportation master Plans before. Things change, get added and removed all the time in these documents.

I don't get why you're so upset about this. I notice your location says Ward 28 which could stand to benefit from a DRL, but I really don't understand this almost personal hate for Vaughan and York Region building a subway while at the same time chastising them for being car-oriented and low density. More transit is good for everyone and can only attract more people to changing modes of transportation and spur higher density (it's been done before at Yonge & Finch which was almost farmland back when the subway was extended). Considering it's such a "unprecedented" event that this subway is being built like this I'm surprised so many of your arguments against it seem to be based on "precedent". Maybe if this is successful it can be used for "precedent" in future transit expansion! (I jest).

You act like the investment in this subway is going to signal the end of investment in transit expansion in Toronto and plummet the region into debt yet you fail to ever bring up any other figures with regards to Highway expansion around the region, road expansion, and other costs that also take money away from the general provincial funding for transit (this includes government scandals, overpaying for energy, etc) that overall take away more money from the regional pool of transit money than this extension which was funded by 4 different levels of government and ACTUALLY adds to the regional transit network. Have you ever thought that maybe this extension could serve as an excuse for less funding to expand the 400 or 407 or other roads around it because it serves the area?

Can we not just put this project in perspective a little bit? Maybe put the bickering aside and be happy at least SOME transit expansion is happening? Because I think we can all agree that the only reason anyone is really arguing in this thread is because of a LACK of funding for rapid transit expansion in the region and a comprehensive plan to pay for it (shared at all levels of government) instead of piecemeal gifts from the province that require municipalities to fight between each other rather than work together for funding. I don't think anybody is arguing about providing transit to a proposed urban growth centre and the country's second biggest university campus. This is really just an argument about transit technology. Let's just agree to disagree about it. Because you're obviously going to get people who support it and don't support and have planners say one thing and politicians say another. In the end transit plans aren't entirely based off of math and numbers, but a mixture of political dancing, public opinion and a little bit of scientific analysis.

 

[cplchanb]

I wouldn't call Viva BRT. If you actually use it, it's pretty damn slow. The only real BRT in the GTA is the Mississauga Transitway, and maybe the York U busway.

Which lines are you referring to? I can notice a marked advantage for purple east especially during rush hour. Sure there are still issues with traffic signalling and construction but fundamentally, this is a BRT no question.
obviously Blue is a different story because until ph2 gets to them, its a BRT-lite with queue jump lanes and spaced stops

btw heres an official definition if youre wondering. VIVA purple clearly falls into this category:

https://www.itdp.org/library/standards-and-guides/the-bus-rapid-transit-standard/what-is-brt/