Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[Amy Rose]

Still, Sheppard is like Manhattan compared to where this subway is going.

Wasn't it somewhere on the sheppard extension thread that building a subway to nowhere causes development to skyrocket? Is Toronto/Vaughan such an exception?

 

[Dan416]

Wasn't it somewhere on the sheppard extension thread that building a subway to nowhere causes development to skyrocket? Is Toronto/Vaughan such an exception?

I don't doubt that development will accompany the Vaughan extension. I simply don't agree with the extension beyond York U/Steeles. Finishing Sheppard would be better. Building the DRL would be best. Clearly a subway in Sudbury isn't going to cause a lot of development, but a subway in downtown Toronto will.

 

[JoeParez]

ITs the 905 part that sucks...

Wow, a 905 bashing post; how original.
I could go on and on about how "downtowners" should get their nose out of the air, but I don't want to start that argument.

As a 905'er (well that did it, you probably won't read the rest of my post); I actually fully agree that subway development should be midtown/downtown before anywhere else. However, Highway 7 and 407 Station areas are currently developing and are going to be transit hubs.. it remains to be seen whether or not that area is going to be developed as planned; but I can assure you that there will be plenty of ridership from Highway 7 to Downsview and then down to Union.

The other day I had to go down to Dufferin and Queen (OH NOES I'M INFILTRATING).. and I was faced with a task of "How the fuck do I get down there?" -- not wanting to drive the whole way (because I hate driving downtown) I made my way to Wilson station to leave my car and take transit down; but YIKES -- there was traffic like no other on 401; which caused me to think "You know what'd be fucking awesome? A Subway station in Vaughn that I can take right downtown! You know to get my car off the road and get people like me who always depend on their car, to take transit" -- "Hell, I could even purchase a day pass and do all my travelling by transit or walking by the time I get downtown."

That's the reason it's coming up to Vaughan, there are alot of people like me who'd want to take the subway, but it's a bitch to get to the closest station, either by transit or by car. Hmmmmm, isn't that another issue people bitch about? Us 905ers clogging "YOUR" streets up with our cars? So it sucks that the subway comes to Vaughan to get those people out of their cars and on to transit and hopefully, relieve some congestion?

Maybe Downtowners aren't doing enough to get the transit they want downtown?
Like I said, I support downtown transit development, I think the DRL is a fabulous idea -- but anyone and their mothers know that'll never fly; not with the way transit is handled @ City Hall.

/rant.

 

[valkoholic]

Nice rant! As much as I don't like the vaughan extension you make a good point. Vaughan is kind of a transportation dead-zone because it requires a car to live in, but there's no good highway link to downtown.

To be fair though, if they stopped the line at Steeles West you could just drive there and hop on the subway. They're building the mother of all park-and-ride lots there.

 

[sixrings]

I like the 905... I have inlaws that live in Suaga... I grew up in Scarborough... GUess what? I would have rather have grown up in Sauga...

This is not 905 bashing... Its all about Money.... Torontonians will have to subsudize the vaughn Subway system because there wont be enough riders to justify it.... You say you want to take it because you dont want to clog up our streets because we dont like 905ers on our streets... I can live with 905ers on the street it just frusterates me that they are ruining our infrastructure and we will end up having to pay for it ourselves... A 905/416 border toll could fix that... How does someone buy in Vaughn or 905 that has to come downtown and not realize there isnt going to be a good transit system or there will be clogged roads with possibly Tolls. The answer The MONEY.. More house for your money.... Well at 1.30 cents a LTR with Tolls on the 407 and soon possibly the 416... You cant have your cake and eat it too...

BTW I Love Sauga and UNIONVILLE...

 

[SlickFranky]

...there was no "905 bashing" to get all rant-y over. It's the extension to the 905 that sucks...not the 905 itself. No need to get all defensive.

 

[BMO]

Toronto will not be subsidizing the line, due to lack of ridership...considering that a large proportion of revenue that the TTC does make off of the subway is from 905 passengers totally puts your idea in the backseat. This includes people from Durham, Peel, and York Regions. Vaughan (York Region) is fully paying its share of the line. When it comes to maintaining the Subway, I believe there is an agreement for York Region to incur some of the maintenance costs and if not, the TTC will own the land on which its stations are located in Vaughan, therefore potentially profiting off of development.

I really don't understand why ppl in the 416 think its bad to extend the subway to the 905, when the majority of people in Toronto use the Bus or Streetcars as opposed to the subway. Not to mention that people in the 905 ALREADY currently use the subways! It's not like they aren't already contributing to the overall ridership. People in the 905 pretty much only have two choices, either GO or the Subway to get to work, granted they choose not to drive downtown. Building a connection the the proposed BRT route along 407 is amongst one of the smartest things the provincial government has done in a long time. Pay money now to save from paying higher costs in the future when it is extremely needed.

Not to mention York Region's BRT line on Highway 7 will be completed its phase 1, which will see it totally separated from mixed traffic int he most congested parts of the route. The new extension to highway 7, also put Vaughan mills and wonderland just a short 7-10 min ride away. Something which one had to take the GO from York Mills to achieve from Toronto, or make a transfer onto the Jane bus at Bloor or from one of the northern perpendicular bus routes.

York Region knows what it wants...it wants a subway. Seems like the only municipality that doesn't know what it wants is Toronto, who can't seem to come up with a concrete transit plan.

OH and BTW, haven't you been keeping up that the 416 is becoming a bedroom community to the 905? When you look at it that way, seems like the 905 is paying for 416ers to come and use the roads and streets in the 905...

We're no longer separate municipalities anymore, all municipalities in the region share a symbiotic relationship whether we like it or not.

 

[sixrings]

I really don't understand why ppl in the 416 think its bad to extend the subway to the 905, when the majority of people in Toronto use the Bus or Streetcars as opposed to the subway. ....York Region knows what it wants...it wants a subway. Seems like the only municipality that doesn't know what it wants is Toronto, who can't seem to come up with a concrete transit plan.

I took the two qoutes that will frusterate most Torontonians opposed to the 905 Subway. You suggest that most Torontonians take the bus or streetcar... You make it sound like its a desired choice... MOST Torontonians would choose subways if they could but the lines arent being built for us... The fact that 905 is getting a extension when the DRL isnt even being planned is fusterating to Many torontonians who would LOVE to choose subway over streetcar and Busses... Your second statement is that Torontonians cant figure out a plan...Torontos IDEAL Tranist PLAN is Transit CITY but made of SUBWAYS PLUS a DRL.... The reality is that there isnt enough money for that. The fact that there isnt enough money doesnt mean that Torontonians DOnt know what they want or cant put together a plan.

 

[JoeParez]

...there was no "905 bashing" to get all rant-y over. It's the extension to the 905 that sucks...not the 905 itself. No need to get all defensive.

My response was a little short sighted, I understand -- short fuse I guess.
Anytime I'm on a Toronto based website and I see "905" -- I can't help but get a little defensive.

This is not 905 bashing... Its all about Money.... Torontonians will have to subsudize the vaughn Subway system because there wont be enough riders to justify it....

While I agree for the most part, I truly feel that the ridership will be higher than what most people expect it to be; I've seen this extension labelled as a "subway to nowhere" only because the stations are being built where development hasn't started -- and I understand the whole "if you build it, they will come" scenario didn't quite work for Sheppard, but I believe there is a healthy amount of York U, U of T, George Brown and Ryerson students, plus Vaughan residents who work downtown, that can justify this extension. There are what; 6 stations on the extension? Part of me believes that all of those stations will have healthier numbers than any station on the Sheppard Subway (with the exception of Yonge/Sheppard).

Anyways, I didn't mean to get all huffy puffy -- my true point was that I feel that the ridership will be better than expected.

 

[BMO]

I took the two qoutes that will frusterate most Torontonians opposed to the 905 Subway. You suggest that most Torontonians take the bus or streetcar... You make it sound like its a desired choice... MOST Torontonians would choose subways if they could but the lines arent being built for us... The fact that 905 is getting a extension when the DRL isnt even being planned is fusterating to Many torontonians who would LOVE to choose subway over streetcar and Busses... Your second statement is that Torontonians cant figure out a plan...Torontos IDEAL Tranist PLAN is Transit CITY but made of SUBWAYS PLUS a DRL.... The reality is that there isnt enough money for that. The fact that there isnt enough money doesnt mean that Torontonians DOnt know what they want or cant put together a plan.

I understand what you're saying. And for the most part taking the bus or streetcar in Toronto is heaven compared to what exists in the 905. I live in Thornhill, and I love taking the TTC as opposed to the YRT bus, even though the YRT stops right in front of my house. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while Ideally York Region would like to have more frequent buses similar to the TTC, we've cut our loses, and opted for a subway and two very good BRT lines, with mediocre collector bus routes. Whether this is the most effective choice remains to be seen, but it is not in any way an ideal choice.

Toronto much like anywhere else has the choice for a better extended rapid transit service with Transit city, or a less expanded service with better and more efficient routes, (like what is currently being proposed).

Now believe me when I say, most 905ers would like a DRL, hell it wouldn't only benefit torontonians but ALL commuters. The fact of the matter is that proportionately, the amount of jobs in Toronto compared to the 905 is becoming much less. Now you may argue that many of the jobs in the 905 are mostly accessible by car, but hey the 905 has to start somewhere. the 416 is no longer the booming job market it once was.

And do you really think stopping the line short at steeles is really going to mutually benefit students going to York U (which is the biggest POI on the extension) from York Region as those coming from Toronto? Don't forget many students from brampton will take ZUM to VMC to take the subway down to York U as well. And students from Barrie will connect at the 407 station off of GO.

 

[Dan416]

My response was a little short sighted, I understand -- short fuse I guess.
Anytime I'm on a Toronto based website and I see "905" -- I can't help but get a little defensive.



While I agree for the most part, I truly feel that the ridership will be higher than what most people expect it to be; I've seen this extension labelled as a "subway to nowhere" only because the stations are being built where development hasn't started -- and I understand the whole "if you build it, they will come" scenario didn't quite work for Sheppard, but I believe there is a healthy amount of York U, U of T, George Brown and Ryerson students, plus Vaughan residents who work downtown, that can justify this extension. There are what; 6 stations on the extension? Part of me believes that all of those stations will have healthier numbers than any station on the Sheppard Subway (with the exception of Yonge/Sheppard).

Anyways, I didn't mean to get all huffy puffy -- my true point was that I feel that the ridership will be better than expected.

I think the Toronto stations of the extension will do just fine (Finch West, York University, Steeles). The Highway 407 station is going to be severely underused if you ask me. Vaughan Centre will get all of its ridership from either people driving there and parking there or people being dropped off. I don't see many people taking public transit there. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It's almost funny how the anti-905 things picks up and goes away every 10 or 15 pages.

Most Torontonians would choose subway over streetcar and bus? That's nice.
Most 905ers would choose helicopters over cars. Personally, I'd like a transporter. But that's not really relevant is it? We're trying to construct a REGIONAL network with finite money.
The fact that Torontonians WANT something doesn't mean that it's what's best for Toronto, or the GTA or Ontario.
Rob Ford's transit plan may or may not be great but Transit City, for all its legitimate benefits, was only a few steps up from being drawn on a napkin, regardless of whether Torontonians like it or not.

I don't know about the areas around Finch and Downsview but the idea anyone would be skeptical about development in VAUGHAN is just absurd.
It's the fastest growing city in Canada, it's basically run by developers, there is provincially mandated intensification around the stations (including 35-storey towers already approved)....
I'm sure there were people in the 70s who thought it was ridiculous that Toronto should extend its subway up to North York but it's pretty hard to see those people are heroes of any kind today.
The subsidization argument is also only effective to a point. You sure don't mind when 905ers come downtown and spend money at restaurants, get a coffee at the Finch Station Tim Hortons or, in a hundred other ways support Toronto's economy. We're all on the same team, believe it or not.

As has been stated a billion times already on this thread, York Region pushed for the extension and they (eventually) got it. The DRL, on the other hand, was not a TTC or Toronto priority and so they didn't get it.
They DID get Transit City (more than 3x the cost of the Spadina extension)...and then see it curtailed and scuttled. But that's not the fault of politicians or residents in York Region.

I can totally understand the idea that Toronto needs more subways but this doesn't have to be a zero sum game. This forum, of all places, should be somewhere people get that.

 

[sixrings]

I think that the current downtown office boom which has and continues to happen may refute your statement...

It's almost funny how the anti-905 things picks up and goes away every 10 or 15 pages.

Most Torontonians would choose subway over streetcar and bus? That's nice.
Most 905ers would choose helicopters over cars. Personally, I'd like a transporter. But that's not really relevant is it? We're trying to construct a REGIONAL network with finite money.
The fact that Torontonians WANT something doesn't mean that it's what's best for Toronto, or the GTA or Ontario.
Rob Ford's transit plan may or may not be great but Transit City, for all its legitimate benefits, was only a few steps up from being drawn on a napkin, regardless of whether Torontonians like it or not.

I don't know about the areas around Finch and Downsview but the idea anyone would be skeptical about development in VAUGHAN is just absurd.

It just seems to most Torontonians that GO should be responsible for creating a REGIONAL network... NOT the TTC... ABout VAUGHAN sure its been growing.. WIll things change now that more businesses are moving downtown.. WIll it change with Gas continuing to rise? Sure people wanted to buy detached houses in VAUGHAN but are they going to be willing to buy a CONDO there???? And even if the development happens it will probably not be for another 30 years that it will be dense enough to justify this extension...

BTW IMO I think Torontonians in the END are going to be beating their own heads that they didnt UNDERSTAND TC and was fooled into believing it was just a STREETCAR!

 

[JoeParez]

The Highway 407 station is going to be severely underused if you ask me. Vaughan Centre will get all of its ridership from either people driving there and parking there or people being dropped off. I don't see many people taking public transit there. Hopefully I'm wrong.

The highway 407 station is going to be a transit hub; I believe all of YRT, TTC, Viva, Zum and GO are going to have their own bus bays; filtering in riders from 407, Highway 7 and Jane Street. For example, if you're in Brampton, you'd take the Zum Express bus that takes the 407 over to the station, and down into Toronto. That bus, every time I pass it on the 407 -- is full.

The same goes with Highway 7 station; once the Viva BRT is completed over to Woodbridge, you'll see YRT, Viva and ZUM pour people on the subway. I have a friend who works on the development team for "Vaughan Corporate Centre" he often says how the development is attempting to get people to arrive there by transit -- that there will be fewer parking spots when the development is complete. I have faith in this extension and the development in Vaughan.

However, I totally understand and respect your skepticism.

 

[BMO]

I think that the current downtown office boom which has and continues to happen may refute your statement...

There is a small boom of office space development in the downtown core, as seen through Telus House, B-A centre, and the new RBC building, as well as the price-waterhouse coopers building, but in relation the amount of office space development occurring outside the 416, this is proportionately much smaller. Its the equivalent of saying "well they've expanded the road section of yonge st downtown therefore there's more road development", when in reality there was much more road expansion out in the 905 at various locations...