Toronto Southcore Financial Centre & Delta Toronto | 159.71m | 45s | GWL | KPMB

wow. it looks like for combined downtown/suburban office space, we're number 2 in north america for total inventory. behind nyc, but ahead of dc and chicago. way ahead of boston, philly, san francisco, and houston.
 
That link was more interesting then you think : )

I take back my comment - compared to some US cities, the ratio of space between the suburbs and the city is a lot greater than Toronto (i.e. they have more suburrban office space - btw, again, the city here is typically the old city / core).

C = City, S = Suburbs, in Millions
Atlanta:
C - 58
S - 188

Boston:
C - 57
S - 101

Dallas:
C - 37
S - 266 <<<

LA:
C - 32
S - 165

San Francisco:
C - 88
S - 53

Washington (so much more space then I thought here):
C - 138
S - 306

...

btw,

The Toronto numbers look 100% WRONG ... Toronto does NOT have 180 million ... this is including the suburbs ... the centreal core is only around 80 million ... with suburbs around 90 ...
 
Design Wallah said:
wow. it looks like for combined downtown/suburban office space, we're number 2 in north america for total inventory. behind nyc, but ahead of dc and chicago. way ahead of boston, philly, san francisco, and houston.
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Again, just so I'm clear - that number must be wrong - the total in Toronto is around 180 million not 180 + 90 ...
 
Here are the top 21 cities on that report by total downtown office inventory:

CITY / BUILT / UNDER CONSTRUCTION / TOTAL

1. New York / 354 050 000 / 9 644 000 / 363 694 000
2. Toronto / 185 826 000 / 1 598 000 / 187 424 000
3. Washington / 138 988 000 / 3 346 000 / 142 234 000
4. Chicago / 133 598 000 / 0 / 133 598 000
5. San Francisco / 83 149 000 / 210 000 / 83 359 000
6. Boston / 57 972 000 / 1 594 000 / 59 566 000
7. Atlanta / 57 633 000 / 0 / 57 633 000
8. Montreal / 49 429 000 / 0 / 49 429 000
9. Seattle / 43 952 000 / 0 / 43 952 000
10. Philadelphia / 41 665 000 / 0 / 41 665 000
11. Houston / 37 829 000 / 1 817 000 / 39 646 000
12. Calgary / 36 489 000 / 2 976 000 / 39 465 000
13. Dallas - Ft. Worth / 37 145 000 / 0 / 37 145 000
14. Ottawa / 34 682 000 / 550 000 / 35 232 000
15. Cleveland / 33 264 000 / 0 / 33 264 000
16. Portland / 32 254 000 / 369 000 / 32 623 000
17. Los Angeles / 32 039 000 / 0 / 32 039 000
18. Detroit / 31 090 000 / 150 000 / 31 240 000
19. Kansas City / 26 003 000 / 0 / 26 003 000
20. Denver / 25 638 000 / 0 / 25 638 000
21. Vancouver / 24 450 000 / 60 000 / 24 510 000

As for the anomalous area for downtown Toronto, could it be due to differences in what is counted as office space? I notice that the total (downtown plus suburban) office space in the USA is 5 030 345 000 square feet, compared to Canada's total of 558 759 000 square feet, which is in line with the two country's population ratios (population -- 9.2 to 1; office space -- 9.0 to 1). If Toronto's numbers were 100 000 000 lower then the two ratios would be off by quite a bit (population -- still 9.2 to 1; office space -- 11 to 1). I notice that "Class A" office space in Toronto is only 42 million square feet in downtown Toronto, plus 46 million square feet in the suburbs -- does that sound about right?
 
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It's wrong ... I'm 100% sure :) Toronto DOES NOT HAVE 185 million square feet downtown ... not even close ... btw, when downtown is used here it's not the CBD - it's the entire region, that's very subjective - as I send in a prior post, for Toronto, downtown == the central region == downtown / Yonge and Bloor / Yonge St. Clair / Yonge and Eglinton. Other US cities are probably similar (I don't know Chicago well enough but from the map the area coveraged was quite large).

It wouldn't take a genius, or anyone who's visited Chicago and Toronto to know that it's pretty clear Chicago does have more office space (and it does).

So Toronto is really about #5 on that list ... and that makes sense ...
 
Some of those U.S suburban numbers look pretty wonky as well. I think they may have mixed industrial space into the total, or perhaps retail. (127 msf in suburban Denver?)
 
According to this report, the total office inventory in downtown + midtown, which together matches your definition of "downtown", is about 81 500 000 square feet.

Hmmm.

With the currently under construction office space, Toronto would be almost identical to San Francisco, at least for downtown office inventory.
 
Mongo said:
According to this report, the total office inventory in downtown + midtown, which together matches your definition of "downtown", is about 81 500 000 square feet.

Hmmm.

With the currently under construction office space, Toronto would be almost identical to San Francisco, at least for downtown office inventory.
Click to expand...

Yep, and that sounds accurate compared to 180+ :)

You say the suburban numbers sound odd but don't forget US cities have huge subrubs : - ) - But having said that they seem a little high. I mean if Toronoto's is only around 90 million - I'd expect most US cities to all be 90 million or less - Denver, for one ...
 
Colliers have been producing reports like this for years and years (decades!) as do the other commercial brokerage houses. If they were dramatically miscounting the size of the Toronto office market (as suggested here), someone would have called them on it years ago.

Unless we assume that no one is as smart as the people on Urbantoronto.ca!!?

Their definitions (in terms of geography and what constitutes office) might differe from what is perceived here but, that aside, if they say Toronto has 180 million s.f. of office space....I am inclined to believe it.

Each "house" has different definitions....CBRE report that the total office market in the GTA is 150 million s.f.
Cushman's report closer to 170 million s.f.......so the fact that someone else, by their definitions, has the number higher does not surprise me at all.
 
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TOareaFan said:
Colliers have been producing reports like this for years and years (decades!) as do the other commercial brokerage houses. If they were dramatically miscounting the size of the Toronto office market (as suggested here), someone would have called them on it years ago.

Unless we assume that no one is as smart as the people on Urbantoronto.ca!!?

Their definitions (in terms of geography and what constitutes office) might differe from what is perceived here but, that aside, if they say Toronto has 180 million s.f. of office space....I am inclined to believe it.
Click to expand...

I agree, but according to certain forumers on UT ..it cant be true, the office vacany rate is skyrocketing here in Toronto, and there is no way more office space can be built on spec without securing tennants... blah blah blah :rolleyes:
 
Automation Gallery said:
I agree, but according to certain forumers on UT ..it cant be true, the office vacany rate is skyrocketing here in Toronto, and there is no way more office space can be built on spec without securing tennants... blah blah blah :rolleyes:
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The vacancy rate is increasing......"skytrocketing" is a bit of an exageration. Toronto has never been a "spec" office market. The level of pre-leasing varies from building to building depending on ower/developer and lender risk tolerance but the original Bay/Adelaide Centre (the Trizec one from the late 80's early 90's that ended up being capped) was probably (if my memory serves me correctly) the last "shovel in the ground without any tenants" true spec office start we have seen.
 
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TOareaFan said:
I was not aware that downtown was "eroding" and that it was "all" becoming condos......BayAddlaide 1.1million s.f., Union Tower 800k s.f., 1.2 million s.f., Maple Leaf Square, 200k s.f., 800k s.f......what is that 4 million new s.f. of office space....without losing any buildings and without counting the second building of SouthCore!

I only suggested one possible reaction from Lanterra/CF to this new building....did not say it would be successful nor did I say it was good....but to counter me with some sort of "downtown eroding as everything turns to condo" argument is, frankly, laughable.
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Not laughable at all given the history of the site
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-20290.pdf

There is supposed to be a restrictive covenant on the Ice site to ensure that residential development does not occur on the non-residential portion of the site for a period of 50 years from December 31, 2008.... so assuming that the paperwork went through as described in the staff report, they wouldn't be allowed to convert the Ice office site to condos until 2059
 
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