Toronto Southcore Financial Centre & Delta Toronto | 159.71m | 45s | GWL | KPMB

Just take advantage of existing landmarks, and call it the Roundhouse Zone, or something...
 
Big Daddy said:
I wonder if the folks at MLSE are kicking themselves for not proceeding with the office building at ICE. Opportunity lost. it will be years now before the opportunity comes by again.
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Or, alternatively, they may use the lack of demand for additional office space as support for an application to turn that into Ice III.....more residential!
 
TOareaFan said:
Or, alternatively, they may use the lack of demand for additional office space as support for an application to turn that into Ice III.....more residential!
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Not going to happen - the city is adamant that this be an office building. Its part of their strategy to expand the downtown and frankly I agree. We need a balance downtown. If it all becomes condos - "downtown" will continue to erode and office space will end up in the suburbs or adjacent cities.
 
Big Daddy said:
Not going to happen - the city is adamant that this be an office building. Its part of their strategy to expand the downtown and frankly I agree. We need a balance downtown. If it all becomes condos - "downtown" will continue to erode and office space will end up in the suburbs or adjacent cities.
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Exactly. Don't forget that most of the railway lands (expecially between Bay and CN Tower) was supposed to be an extension of the financial district. Downton needs all the office space it can get to keep it vital.
 
Big Daddy said:
Not going to happen - the city is adamant that this be an office building. Its part of their strategy to expand the downtown and frankly I agree. We need a balance downtown. If it all becomes condos - "downtown" will continue to erode and office space will end up in the suburbs or adjacent cities.
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I was not aware that downtown was "eroding" and that it was "all" becoming condos......BayAddlaide 1.1million s.f., Union Tower 800k s.f., 1.2 million s.f., Maple Leaf Square, 200k s.f., 800k s.f......what is that 4 million new s.f. of office space....without losing any buildings and without counting the second building of SouthCore!

I only suggested one possible reaction from Lanterra/CF to this new building....did not say it would be successful nor did I say it was good....but to counter me with some sort of "downtown eroding as everything turns to condo" argument is, frankly, laughable.
 
TOareaFan said:
I was not aware that downtown was "eroding" and that it was "all" becoming condos......BayAddlaide 1.1million s.f., Union Tower 800k s.f., 1.2 million s.f., Maple Leaf Square, 200k s.f., 800k s.f......what is that 4 million new s.f. of office space....without losing any buildings and without counting the second building of SouthCore!

I only suggested one possible reaction from Lanterra/CF to this new building....did not say it would be successful nor did I say it was good....but to counter me with some sort of "downtown eroding as everything turns to condo" argument is, frankly, laughable.
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I'm not sure about the "eroding" bit but this is nothing to laugh at, these lands should be kept office use with intermixed residential units, just like we're getting now ...
 
Just a rough estimate of the height of these two proposed buildings.

18 York will be 114m and 26 floors, while Bremner Tower will be 30 floors. Assuming a similar floor height, it should be about 114m x 30/26 = 132m in height. Perhaps an extra floor's worth, since it apparently has a triple-height lobby, compared to the double-height lobby of 18 York, so let's say 132m to 136m.

The Delta hotel looked to be about 25% taller than Bremner Tower in the massing studies (less so in the renders, but their forced perspective makes height comparisons more difficult), so it should be between 132 x 1.25 = 165m tall, and 136m x 1.25 = 170m tall. That is under the 175m of the 50 floor proposal made public several months ago, but still quite tall (although there will be four taller residential buildings just to its south and southeast)

edit -- If I were to give a single set of heights, I would reason as follows: 18 York is 26 floors, plus the lobby is double height for one extra floor equivalent, plus the roof element is equivalent to two extra floors, for a total of 29 equivalent floors. Bremner Tower has 30 actual floors, plus a triple height lobby for two extra equivalent floors, plus two additional equivalent floors for the roof element, for a total of 34 equivalent floors. Its total height (assuming equal floor heights) would be 114m x 34/29 = 133.7m, and the Delta hotel would be about 133.7m x 1.25 = 167m

Telus Tower: 122m (136m with spire) / 30 floors
18 York: 114m / 26 floors
Bremner Tower: 134m / 30 floors
Delta Hotel: 167m / 45 floors
 
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Does anyone know how many million square feet of office space there is in downtown Toronto? How do we stack up with other cities?

Even compared to NYC, DC, Chicago and London we've added a lot of space in the last couple years. But my sense is our office market is still relatively small.
 
You'd have to compare the office clusters downtown to find out, and I don't know if Central Business Districts have that information available. Citywide maybe.
 
It's nearly impossible to get an accurate count. The brokerages have different standards and minimum cutoffs. Owner occupied isn't tabulated either. The amount of office space doesn't reflect the number of suits either. Our banks are ridiculously efficient in space useage.
 
It's not that hard - there are some accurate counts - your right they only tend to include offices over a certain size - but this is the case everywhere so you can compare city to city:

http://www.colliersmn.com/prod/ccgrd.nsf/publish/B262879C9DAF1A6E8525775700757A5E/$File/GTA+Office+Market+Statistics+Q2+2010.pdf

Now let's look at Chicago:
http://dsg.colliers.com/document.aspx?report=207.pdf

So Chicago is around 130 million square feet.

Toronto's central office market (which is downtown + midtown [bloor / st. clair / eglinton]) is 88 million square feet.

Toronto's suburbs (be fair here, this includes North York / Scarborough / other parts of the 416, so a signficant part of this is 416 only) is around 99 million - for Chicago, this similar measure (i.e. rest of city proper and surroundings) is about 110 million.

Montreal donwtown is around 50 million and suburbs around 23 million.

Don't even bother looking at NYC ... it blows everything out of the water in comparison ... there is no comparison. One thing you'll see is Toronto has a lot of space outside of the traditional core (i.e. old city vs new city + outer suburbs) more so then others (the ratio that is, most cities have around the same or a little bit less in the suburbs, Toronto has a little more) i.e. Toronto is more decentralized in comparison to a lot of cities - although our other office areas tend to be clustered as well (in the 905 + outer 416)
 
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