TheKingEast
Senior Member
So Toronto is replacing its entertainment district with condos. So where exactly is the entertainment being moved to? Toronto just got even more boring.
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- Thread starter Mike in TO
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Ramako
Moderator
Almost every condo that has gone up in this neighbourhood has replaced a parking lot. How is this any less the entertainment district? It still features Roy Thompson Hall, the Royal Alexandra Theatre, the Princess of Wales Theatre, Second City, City TV, the Score, Yuk-Yuks, the CBC, the Canadian Walk of Fame and now the TIFF Bell Lightbox... none of that is going anywhere. The area is still packed with bars and restaurants. The two heritage buildings along John Street (the Daniels sales centre and the former Fox and Fiddle that is about to be moved over) will soon add to that, as will the new higher-end bars and restaurants in the Ritz and Bisha hotels (the latter featuring a new patio on Blue Jays Way). I'm not crying over the loss of shitty chains like the Fox and the Fiddle or Hooters, or the occasional club. The Entertainment District should be more than a party zone for frat boys and 905'ers.
None of this is to mention the 'cultural corridor" improvements that are coming to John Street, or the small parkette that this project will be creating.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
Theaters....OK. That's fine, but besides that there's not much. CBC and Canadian Walk of Fame don't scream excitement to many. And the average person is not going to hang out and the Ritz and Bisha.
A lot of the planned condos are replacing clubs/bars/restaurants. I can read a long list of the clubs/bars that have been shut down over the last 5 years to make room for the master plan.
I have no issue with change, but I'd much rather have a Hooters and Fox&Fiddle over a Rabba's or Subway.
AlbertC
Superstar
^ Well said, Ramako. The addition of thousands of new residents to the area also means new retail amenities will open throughout downtown to serve their needs. This area is changing from a novelty night district into a liveable, mixed-use high density district. Clubs and trashy bars like Hooter's are basically one storey stand-alone buildings that can resurface anywhere else in the city. The restaurant row is here to stay, and King Street (west of Spadina) is already the hotspot for bars, pubs, and clubs. New venues like the Soho Metropolitan, Lightbox, and Hotel Ocho: http://www.blogto.com/hotels/hotel-ocho-toronto have already opened, providing the area with classier entertainment spots. With the influx of new residents, more venues like the Ocho are poised to open in the near future.
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unimaginative2
Senior Member
Sorry, but those "retail amenities" are Rabbas, dry cleaners, and Subways. Those do not an interesting urban neighbourhood make.
Ramako
Moderator
What bars and restaurants have closed down in the district to make way for condos in the last 5 years? I'm genuinely curious.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
But we have the CBC building!
Sometimes I wonder if some people ever travel to different cities and see what their entertainment district looks like. Bay Street is full of 30+ storey hi-rises and the place is a wasteland. Cityplace...same thing. But for whatever reason, the 40/50s hi-rises will have a different effect in the entertainment district. Pizza Pizza, Subway, dry cleaners, Rabba's sounds oh so exciting.
Boston does it right. Montreal does it right. New York does it right. Philly does it right. Atlanta does it right. Toronto? We'll see...but I don't have a good feeling about this.
Ramako
Moderator
Wow, you really caught a marlin with my CBC comment. Keep ignoring the stuff about the John Street cultural corridor (which will include a pedestrian promenade and square), the two restored heritage buildings on John that will house new bars and the new park adjacent to them. Keep ignoring the effect of the Lightbox and the new restaurant and patio on King and John. Keep ignoring all the high-end restaurants and bars going into the area to serve the sudden influx of wealthy tourists from new luxury hotels.
People are moving into this area because they want the lifestyle it offers. Sure, you might see another bank, Subway or drycleaners here or there, but how does that translate into all the bars and restaurants being shut down? The nice bars and restaurants are precisely why people want to live there in the first place. None of that is somehow lessened if a drycleaner suddenly opens up across the street on what was previously a parking lot. Last I checked, Queen West also had drycleaners, fast food outlets and banks. They can co-exist. The Entertainment District can have it all.
And if you think that the Entertainment District will turn into Bay Street or CityPlace simply by virtue of tall buildings, then you don't really understand what's fundamentally wrong with Bay Street or CityPlace. Hint: It's not the height.
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taal
Senior Member
I'm curious as to what you're referring to regarding Atlanta and Boston's entertainment district ?
Actually add New York to that list as well. btw just to be clear; I'm not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely curious what specific areas you are referring to in those cities that qualify as such.
Actually add New York to that list as well. btw just to be clear; I'm not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely curious what specific areas you are referring to in those cities that qualify as such.
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TheKingEast
Senior Member
Manhattan (Soho, Broadway, midtown)... Boston Newburry Street/ Boston Common...downtown Atlanta... All these areas have a nice mix of low-rise hi-rise buildings...a mix of clubs, bars and restaurants with a few chains mixed in.
taal
Senior Member
That's exactly what I thought you were going to say 
And those are great examples ... but why compare them to the entertaining district, most of those aren't lined with clubs (though there are a few) they're are lot more comparable to Queen W ... Bloor Street W, Yorkville proper, King west ...
Or is your argument that the way things are going we will not be able to create another such area in the so called entertainment district ... and will instead turn into a bedroom community so to speak.
If that's you're argument, yep that's an absolutely fair statement and you can argue it's a concern. I just thought you were arguing 1) We have no such areas already which really isn't true OR 2) We're losing out on such an area that already exists in the entertainment district today (or have 5 years ago) as that's clearly not true other then maybe some times at night, as it's a wasteland during the day.
And those are great examples ... but why compare them to the entertaining district, most of those aren't lined with clubs (though there are a few) they're are lot more comparable to Queen W ... Bloor Street W, Yorkville proper, King west ...
Or is your argument that the way things are going we will not be able to create another such area in the so called entertainment district ... and will instead turn into a bedroom community so to speak.
If that's you're argument, yep that's an absolutely fair statement and you can argue it's a concern. I just thought you were arguing 1) We have no such areas already which really isn't true OR 2) We're losing out on such an area that already exists in the entertainment district today (or have 5 years ago) as that's clearly not true other then maybe some times at night, as it's a wasteland during the day.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
That's exactly what I thought you were going to say
And those are great examples ... but why compare them to the entertaining district, most of those aren't lined with clubs (though there are a few) they're are lot more comparable to Queen W ... Bloor Street W, Yorkville proper, King west ...
Or is your argument that the way things are going we will not be able to create another such area in the so called entertainment district ... and will instead turn into a bedroom community so to speak.
If that's you're argument, yep that's an absolutely fair statement and you can argue it's a concern. I just thought you were arguing 1) We have no such areas already which really isn't true OR 2) We're losing out on such an area that already exists in the entertainment district today (or have 5 years ago) as that's clearly not true other then maybe some times at night, as it's a wasteland during the day.
That's my argument. I have no issue with the district being redeveloped. I just feel like it will be a failure. I don't like where it's headed. I can see a bunch of condos...a couple restaurants and some bars...a boring, sterile area.
Toronto has some wonderful areas (Danforth, Leslieville, Queen West, King West, St. Lawrence Market)... I won't say they're similar to any of the cities I posted though. And even with that said...all those toronto areas are wonderful because they kinda just came about...there's nothing contrived about them.
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Ramako
Moderator
I would genuinely appreciate a list of the restaurants and bars that have been shut down in the last five years.
Does anyone have any numbers, official or otherwise?
taal
Senior Member
I mean to be fair though - not all retail underneath condos is doomed ... there are so many great examples in Toronto where it works out great. A couple really good examples in Yorkville. It's boring but most of King East is full of large scale furniture stores all in the base of condos ... again boring yes but that was the goal.
Also in NYCC a couple new developments are making interesting use of the space by allowing units to be split up / combined.
Anyway, I'm just saying it can go hi-rise and be sucesful as well, unless your arguing something regarding the hi-rise nature. But I don't think it'll be like that entirely, I think it'll be pretty mis mashy, which I'm sure won't like but that sets Toronto apart in someways. Time will tell. There aren't many good examples yet are there ? There are a couple building on King West that have went in that have retail use.
taal
Senior Member
I'm sure someone can list them off for you but why what's the point ? We all know a lot of clubs have shutdown and this will keep going, I don't think there have been many resturants per say ... there weren't that many in the area to begin with.
I personally don't see clubs shutting down as a bad thing, a few new ones are opening further on the west end. They're clearly not all being replaced but still ...