Toronto Parks

[King of Kensington]

Please don't tell me you're serious. Westmount is basically Montreal's equivalent to Midtown Toronto - if Toronto had never annexed the Annex, Rosedale, etc. Not to mention the Montreal suburbs on that list are tiny compared to Toronto suburbs. Cote St. Luc and Hampstead are the equivalent of the Bathurst Strip north of Eglinton, for example.

The same is true of the Vancouver suburbs on this list. North Vancouver for instance is two municipalities: with the more urban part being the City of North Vancouver and the rest being part of the District of North Vancouver. Burnaby, the only large suburb on the first page, is about as dense as Mississauga, but remember it's an inner-ring suburb. Toronto's inner-ring suburbs were amalgamated into the city in 1998. North York and Scarborough have populations of about 600,000 - and have denser populations than any Vancouver suburb.

 

[King of Kensington]

Population density:

Toronto CMA 945.4 per sq. km
Montreal CMA 898.1 per sq. km
Vancouver CMA 802.5 per sq. km

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...-fst/pd-pl/Table-Tableau.cfm?T=205&S=3&RPP=50

 

[Ayan]

First you argued that Toronto is too large so we need to break it down (look at old City of Toronto, North York, Scarborough etc.). Then you provided density data at the CMA level to say that GTA has higher density (essentially refuting your own argument). Neither changes the fact that Toronto and Mississauga are the only two Ontario cities among the list of top 25 densely populated Canadian cities and density level can change depending on what land area you are looking at.

 

[Ayan]

Here’s an insightful article on the evolution of Toronto’s parks.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2007/08/03/what_happened_to_citys_park_plan.html

 

[nfitz]

Ayan is suggesting Toronto follow Vancouver's lead....yet I fail to see where Vancouver leads. But as we all know, Ayan isn't motivated by his concern for improving Toronto...he's just anti-Toronto trolling.

Perhaps we can offer him some Toronto-inspired suggestions to help solve the dire lack of downtown Vancouver parks! Perhaps we can convert their storm water treatment facilities into a combined treatment and child's wading pool, like at Sherbourne Common.

 

[freshcutgrass]

The map on page 15 of the linked document clearly shows the lack of trees in downtown Toronto, where tree cover could be as low as 8%.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/pe/bgrd/backgroundfile-55601.pdf

...or as high as 44%. (the 8% is a small area represented by the Bay Street Corridor).

Meanwhile, we know all of downtown Vancouver is 8.3% (page 10)

http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/Urban-Forest-Strategy-Draft.pdf

So how does this jive with your claim about downtown Vancouver being greener???

I'm still asking you to go to the map your provided as "downtown" Vancouver and show me the parks that are there and how they outnumber Toronto's downtown parks...as you claimed.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Vancouver is the most densely populated city in Canada.

In an apples vs apples world:
We would be comparing the pre-amalgamation City of Toronto, in which case Toronto is much denser.
We would be comparing continuous urban area, in which case, Toronto is much denser.

Population density of continuous urban area as defined by Statistics Canada (pop/square km) (2001 census data)
Toronto 2718.29
Montreal 1978.16
Hamilton 1763.13
Vancouver 1720.00
Ottawa 1680.55

Or we would be comparing it at the census tract level, where Toronto will also have denser ones.

 

[freshcutgrass]

http://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver/...to-nature.aspx

According to the link above, Vancouver planted 23,400 trees in 2013.

That link doesn't work.

But here's an official 2014 City of Vancouver link that clearly shows the numbers of trees planted between 2010-2013. (graph on page 38)

http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/Urban-Forest-Strategy-Draft.pdf

 

[King of Kensington]

First you argued that Toronto is too large so we need to break it down (look at old City of Toronto, North York, Scarborough etc.). Then you provided density data at the CMA level to say that GTA has higher density (essentially refuting your own argument). Neither changes the fact that Toronto and Mississauga are the only two Ontario cities among the list of top 25 densely populated Canadian cities and density level can change depending on what land area you are looking at.

No, what I'm saying is when you use the urban form rather than a strict municipality comparison, Vancouver is not denser than Toronto. Both the former City of Toronto and the City of Vancouver constitute a similar land area. Toronto is denser. At the outer edge, Brampton is denser than Surrey etc.

I don't see why the fact that Hampstead, Quebec and White Rock, BC are denser than Mississauga is relevant.

 

[nfitz]

Vancouver is the most densely populated city in Canada. Vancouver has significantly higher population density than Toronto (and to the dismay of those with narrow Toronto-centric views, 4 other Canadian cities are ahead of Toronto including Montreal)

I don't think I've ever seen such a statistically misleading post here. Talk about taking "How to Lie with Statistics" to an extreme!

Either compare the old city of Toronto (97 km²) or the current Toronto+East York District (the current Toronto-East York council) to Vancouver (115 km²) or compare the amalgamated Toronto (630 km²) to something like Vancouver+Burnaby+New Westminster+Richmond+Port Moody+Coquitlam (499 km²). Either way, you'll see Toronto is higher, though perhaps as high statistically as you'd expect, given all our parkland in the downtown area.

To compare what you have, either shows a complete ignorance of both Toronto and statistics. Or a deliberate attempt to troll this forum.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I am not sure why you are comparing Toronto's ravine system to Vancouver’s parks. You will have better luck in comparing McDonald's and other restaurants in Toronto that offer play spaces for kids. You can also consider all the shopping centres in Toronto as quality parks since one would come across far more kids and babies there than in Toronto's ravine system!

Your assumption that Toronto's ravine system does not accommodate children or is lacking family-friendly recreational facilities is wildly incorrect.

 

[King of Kensington]

It's impossible to take an argument that points to a list that includes Westmount (4 sq. km), Cote St. Luc (7 sq. km) and New Westminster (16 sq. km) as "proof" that Toronto (630 sq. km) lacks density seriously.

Next thing we'll hear is that Toronto is lagging behind in wealth because Westmount and West Vancouver have higher average incomes than any GTA municipality.

 

[Ayan]

...or as high as 44%. (the 8% is a small area represented by the Bay Street Corridor).

Meanwhile, we know all of downtown Vancouver is 8.3% (page 10)

http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/Urban-Forest-Strategy-Draft.pdf

So how does this jive with your claim about downtown Vancouver being greener???

The downtown neighbourhood (a clear outlier assuming you know how to read the map) you referred to does not seem any larger than “the small area represented by the Bay Street Corridor†.

I already explained how multiple features make downtown Vancouver considerably greener than downtown Toronto (post #198).

 

[Ayan]

That link doesn't work.

But here's an official 2014 City of Vancouver link that clearly shows the numbers of trees planted between 2010-2013. (graph on page 38)

http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/Urban-Forest-Strategy-Draft.pdf

Here's the link again:


http://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver/access-to-nature.aspx

 

[Ayan]

No, what I'm saying is when you use the urban form rather than a strict municipality comparison, Vancouver is not denser than Toronto. Both the former City of Toronto and the City of Vancouver constitute a similar land area. Toronto is denser. At the outer edge, Brampton is denser than Surrey etc.

I don't see why the fact that Hampstead, Quebec and White Rock, BC are denser than Mississauga is relevant.

But why would you compare the current City of Vancouver to the old City of Toronto? Just because it favours your stance?

I can respond to your comment “South of 16th Avenue Vancouver feels pretty suburban in character†by saying that you should not look past the old City of Vancouver boundary .

Most cities grow through amalgamation. Sometimes it happens more than once. Sometimes amalgamated ares demerge (e.g., Montreal). How far in history do we go back? What’s the point of comparing population density then?

That's why it makes sense to compare the current City of Vancouver to the current City of Toronto. While every inch of Vancouver is not denser than every inch of Toronto, Vancouver overall has a considerably higher population density. Like it or not, the Toronto neighbourhoods with lower density are now parts of Toronto (the same is true for other cities)!

White Rock is part of the Vancouver CMA and it will be at the outer edge.