Toronto Parks

[salsa]

I looked at that from a few angles, and the mapping, and I think that structure, behind a very high fence, is actually part of the condo complex nearby, and is presumably private. But I'm making assumptions here. However, when you look at the list of parks that were provided - http://vancouver.ca/parks-recreation-culture/parks-gardens-and-beaches.aspx there is no reference to the playground. Nor is there any mention on the park page http://cfapp.vancouver.ca/parkfinder_wa/index.cfm?fuseaction=FAC.ParkDetails&park_id=23 - descriptions of other parks do mention playgrounds. This just seems to be some greenery along a walkway, more akin to Norman Jewison Park, James Canning Gardens, or George Hislop Park in Toronto - none of which I'd think to list if I was listing parks in Toronto (despite the prominence in discussing them in this thread).

There's a swing-set at Allan Gardens, or at least there used to be ... a see-saw too - and aren't they in the middle of building a new playground? My 2-year old was running around in it earlier this summer, dodging the whinos while we were waiting for a streetcar, and there was a large fenced off area and some signs. The Music Garden doesn't have a traditional playground, but it's extremely playable, especially with the "maze" and all the other features - and there is a playground about 100 metres further west at the southeast corner of Eireann Quay and Queens Quay. Queens Park does indeed appear to be playground deficient, though I can't think of any nearby residences - though my kids think the entire ROM is a playground ...

Somehow I doubt you would be praising the Music Garden as much if it happened to be in Vancouver instead, where it would otherwise be "little more than some paving stones and perhaps some bushes at an odd intersection" a la flying duck park. My point is, not having a playground doesn't make it any less of a park. Many people don't need a playground to enjoy themselves. For example, I don't have kids, therefore playgrounds are not a high priority for me. I like to simply step away from the street for a little while and sit under a shady tree or on a bench, and just relax for a bit or watch other people. I also enjoy riding my bike in the ravines (where playgrounds are few and far between by the way, nothing wrong with that).

Probably - but we keep getting this odd comments about how many more parks there are in downtown Vancouver than Toronto ... and yet the list of the number of parks in downtown Vancouver is less than 30, some being just little parkette's. My gosh, if we started counting all those in Toronto. The Vancouver website even notes that there are ONLY 220 parks in the entire city! Ouch!

A quick look at the City's website - http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/c...VCM10000071d60f89RCRD&appInstanceName=default shows so many parks downtown, I can't even begin to count them! And it doesn't include school playgrounds which are open outside of school hours, or all of the city parks - such as Williamson Park Ravine, or a lot of parkettes at intersections (though does include some).

I'm not very familiar with Vancouver, but ouch indeed. In Toronto, the website says we have 1600 parks and 600 km of trails, covering 13% of the city's land area. However I'd be ok with fewer parks in favour of really high quality ones like what you find in Manhattan. Also, "little parkette's" are nothing to be scoffed at. I wouldn't count it as a park, but a good parkette beautifies the street, provides a sense of place, and offers a nice place to sit. When I used to live near the Danforth, this parkette right here was one of my most favourite places in the neighbourhood. I often saw someone playing an instrument on that little stage, and lots of people sitting down and enjoying themselves. It can be quite lively. I feel that Toronto doesn't have enough of these.

 

[Ayan]

Probably - but we keep getting this odd comments about how many more parks there are in downtown Vancouver than Toronto ... and yet the list of the number of parks in downtown Vancouver is less than 30, some being just little parkette's. My gosh, if we started counting all those in Toronto. The Vancouver website even notes that there are ONLY 220 parks in the entire city! Ouch!

A quick look at the City's website - http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/c...VCM10000071d60f89RCRD&appInstanceName=default shows so many parks downtown, I can't even begin to count them! And it doesn't include school playgrounds which are open outside of school hours, or all of the city parks - such as Williamson Park Ravine, or a lot of parkettes at intersections (though does include some).

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I addressed this specious argument BEFORE when this discussion started. The vast majority of Toronto's parks are under 25,000 square metres. You conveniently forgot to add the map legend:

Park Size: Green dot (less than 25,000 square metres), yellow dot (25,000 to 75,000 square metres), red dot (more than 75,000 square metres)

Now imagine your maps without all the green dots. Is not it funny how omission of information can change perception ?

If you add the park spaces all over downtown Toronto, it won't exceed the size of Stanley Park. I also noted before how other features make downtown Vancouver significantly greener than downtown Toronto.

To add more perspectives, Toronto is almost six times larger than Vancouver. A comparison of park numbers in absolute terms makes very little sense.

The City of Toronto has the lowest allocation of park space per person in Canada.

The charts on page 15, 16 and 20 in the document below make it quite obvious.

http://torontocentreplan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/july18_11wellesley.pdf

 

[freshcutgrass]

I addressed this specious argument BEFORE when this discussion started. The vast majority of Toronto's parks are under 25,000 square metres.

That's more than 6 acres (2.5 ha). Since when does a park need to be bigger than that?

And if that's the case, your downtown Vancouver park fairy tale is in even bigger trouble.

I'm still waiting for you to divulge the number of those 29 downtown parks you quoted that are actually located in the mapped area you provided. Now you can add how many of them are bigger than 2.5 ha while your at it.

If you add the park spaces all over downtown Toronto, it won't exceed the size of Stanley Park.

No...but it exceeds the number and size of the parks in Downtown Vancouver...which you claim is the opposite.

Besides, it doesn't need to...Stanley Park isn't located in "downtown" Vancouver according to you. And if that's the case, downtown Toronto is bordered by the Islands, Tommy Thompson Park, Don Valley & Rosedale Valley, which far exceeds the size of Stanley Park.

 

[Ayan]

That's more than 6 acres (2.5 ha). Since when does a park need to be bigger than that?

And if that's the case, your downtown Vancouver park fairy tale is in even bigger trouble.

I'm still waiting for you to divulge the number of those 29 downtown parks you quoted that are actually located in the mapped area you provided. Now you can add how many of them are bigger than 2.5 ha while your at it.




No...but it exceeds the number and size of the parks in Downtown Vancouver...which you claim is the opposite.

Besides, it doesn't need to...Stanley Park isn't located in "downtown" Vancouver according to you. And if that's the case, downtown Toronto is bordered by the Islands, Tommy Thompson Park, Don Valley & Rosedale Valley, which far exceeds the size of Stanley Park.

It's funny how you continue to demand proof after proof while offering NONE to substantiate your rhetoric .

 

[freshcutgrass]

It's funny how you continue to demand proof after proof while offering NONE to substantiate your rhetoric .

All the tap dancing in the world isn't going to get you out of the little corner you've painted yourself into.

We all know the gig is up, so you might as well salvage whatever dignity you have left and retract your false statements.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Toronto's urban forest is pretty impressive for a city of Toronto's size. It's also considerably more impressive than Vancouver's.
Vancouver's city-wide canopy cover is 18% (2013). Toronto's is 28%, but that's after the disastrous ice storm that took out huge portion of of it last winter. The plan is to get it back to 40%.

Tree planting for Vancouver had a 4-year total of about 26,000 (2010 - 2013). Toronto plants an average of over 100,000/year.

To put it into perspective, just Toronto's ravine system alone comprises a whopping 26,000 acres. There are only 3,904 acres of parks in total in the entire City of Vancouver.

 

[nfitz]

If you add the park spaces all over downtown Toronto, it won't exceed the size of Stanley Park. I also noted before how other features make downtown Vancouver significantly greener than downtown Toronto.

I'm not sure I'd say anything north of Denman Street was downtown Vancouver. If you want to include Stanley Park as part of downtown Vancouver, then it seems to be fair to include Toronto Islands as part of downtown Toronto, most of which is parkland, and is about half the size of Stanley Park.

The bottom line is that Vancouver is highly park-deficient in comparison to a world-class city like Toronto. Vancouver has some very large parks on it's periphery that completely bias the numbers.

However, you've been focusing on downtown, where by your own admission there's only 20-something parks, some really only parkette's. Vancouver as a whole has only 220 parks according to the reference you provided! The shame!

Anyone who has spent time in both city's can easily see that there's a relative lack of parks in Vancouver near where people live. This has been borne out by the numbers you've provided on the number of parks. The list of downtown parks you provided contains some amazingly small parks. You really can't have it both ways.

And I don't know where you find this bizarre documents that "prove" you case. TorontoCentrePlan.com ... it's as obscure as that French spam site you dug up to "prove" what a street is called when speaking English - if you have to dig that deep, surely you've lost. Simply because some group no one has ever heard of publishes something on the Internet, doesn't make it real.

To put it into perspective, just Toronto's ravine system alone comprises a whopping 26,000 acres. There are only 3,904 acres of parks in total in the entire City of Vancouver.

ROTFLMAO!

 

[freshcutgrass]

I'm not sure I'd say anything north of Denman Street was downtown Vancouver.

The area he is trying to pass off as "downtown" Vancouver is that BIA in the study he linked. It's just a BIA. Check the map supplied....it doesn't even include Robson Street (the main shopping district). That's because that is a separate BIA (as are Yaletown, Chinatown, Gastown). There's a reason he used this, and it's because it makes the "downtown" density high compared to Toronto's (which puts Dufferin Street as a downtown border).

Except it backfires on his "downtown parks" argument. The real downtown Vancouver doesn't come close either, but the version he wants to use is especially bad...it might contain 5 or 6 of those 29 downtown parks he's talking about, and they are pretty small.

Ayan is suggesting Toronto follow Vancouver's lead....yet I fail to see where Vancouver leads. But as we all know, Ayan isn't motivated by his concern for improving Toronto...he's just anti-Toronto trolling.

 

[Ayan]

Toronto's urban forest is pretty impressive for a city of Toronto's size. It's also considerably more impressive than Vancouver's.
Vancouver's city-wide canopy cover is 18% (2013). Toronto's is 28%, but that's after the disastrous ice storm that took out huge portion of of it last winter. The plan is to get it back to 40%.

Tree planting for Vancouver had a 4-year total of about 26,000 (2010 - 2013). Toronto plants an average of over 100,000/year.

To put it into perspective, just Toronto's ravine system alone comprises a whopping 26,000 acres. There are only 3,904 acres of parks in total in the entire City of Vancouver.

When I said that you should provide evidence in support of your unsubstantiated statements, I did not mean concealing data in order to avoid admitting that you had been wrong all along. No wonder you did not provide any links to your data. But don‘t worry, I will provide them on your behalf .

The map on page 15 of the linked document clearly shows the lack of trees in downtown Toronto, where tree cover could be as low as 8%.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/pe/bgrd/backgroundfile-55601.pdf

Note the title (Achieve EQUITABLE Distribution) of the chart. This is really important as Toronto is trying to increase residential density in downtown following Vancouver’s success.

Vancouver is the most densely populated city in Canada. Vancouver has significantly higher population density than Toronto (and to the dismay of those with narrow Toronto-centric views, 4 other Canadian cities are ahead of Toronto including Montreal), yet Vancouver manages to ensure that nearly 93% of its land base is within a FIVE-MINUTE walk to a green space (that’s EQUITABLE).

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...able-Tableau.cfm?LANG=Eng&T=307&SR=1&S=10&O=D

http://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver/...to-nature.aspx

According to the link above, Vancouver planted 23,400 trees in 2013. Given Toronto is almost six times larger than Vancouver, the corresponding equivalent number for Toronto is 140,400 (not 100,000).

The tree cover map is similar to the park deficiency map I noted before (the chart on page 16 of this document):

http://torontocentreplan.org/wp-cont...1wellesley.pdf

They simply reinforce the fact that downtown Toronto desperately needs more quality green spaces and trees!

I am not sure why you are comparing Toronto's ravine system to Vancouver’s parks. You will have better luck in comparing McDonald's and other restaurants in Toronto that offer play spaces for kids. And don’t forget to include the ROM as a few “kids think the entire ROM is a playground†and therefore, it is a park! You can also consider all the shopping centres in Toronto as quality parks since one would come across far more kids and babies there than in Toronto's ravine system!

 

[freshcutgrass]

Somehow I doubt you would be praising the Music Garden as much if it happened to be in Vancouver instead, where it would otherwise be "little more than some paving stones and perhaps some bushes at an odd intersection" a la flying duck park.

I see no grounds for such an absurd characterization.

I also don't think nfitz is unappreciative of "art parks" vs "playgrounds"...it just happens to be the specific topic of a debate he was having with Ayan.

 

[Ayan]

I'm not sure I'd say anything north of Denman Street was downtown Vancouver. If you want to include Stanley Park as part of downtown Vancouver, then it seems to be fair to include Toronto Islands as part of downtown Toronto, most of which is parkland, and is about half the size of Stanley Park.

The bottom line is that Vancouver is highly park-deficient in comparison to a world-class city like Toronto. Vancouver has some very large parks on it's periphery that completely bias the numbers.

However, you've been focusing on downtown, where by your own admission there's only 20-something parks, some really only parkette's. Vancouver as a whole has only 220 parks according to the reference you provided! The shame!

Anyone who has spent time in both city's can easily see that there's a relative lack of parks in Vancouver near where people live. This has been borne out by the numbers you've provided on the number of parks. The list of downtown parks you provided contains some amazingly small parks. You really can't have it both ways.

And I don't know where you find this bizarre documents that "prove" you case. TorontoCentrePlan.com ... it's as obscure as that French spam site you dug up to "prove" what a street is called when speaking English - if you have to dig that deep, surely you've lost. Simply because some group no one has ever heard of publishes something on the Internet, doesn't make it real.

ROTFLMAO!

Given how difficult it was for you to find a park in Vancouver even though you were within 300 m of an 874 hectares park and you never heard any Montrealer referring “boulevard De Maisonneuve†as “Maisonneuve†(the “French spam site†is an online directory of shops along rue Saint-Denis, something you would have realized had you picked up basic French during your “years in Montrealâ€), I am surprised that you shamelessly continue to make definitive statements about cities that you are clearly not familiar with.

I don’t want/have to include Stanley Park as part of downtown Vancouver as geographically it IS located in the downtown Vancouver peninsula. Downtown Vancouver residents don’t need to take a ferry or subject themselves to unpleasant traffic or cross over ugly railway tracks or cross under a hideous expressway in order to access Stanley Park. Millions of people all over the world know/appreciate that and recognize the exemplary quality of the park.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/17/best-parks-in-the-world-tripadvisor_n_5503939.html

I wonder why “Toronto Islands†and “Toronto's ravine system†are not on this list! People must know about these parks worthy of “a world-class cit like Torontoâ€!

 

[Ayan]

The area he is trying to pass off as "downtown" Vancouver is that BIA in the study he linked. It's just a BIA. Check the map supplied....it doesn't even include Robson Street (the main shopping district). That's because that is a separate BIA (as are Yaletown, Chinatown, Gastown). There's a reason he used this, and it's because it makes the "downtown" density high compared to Toronto's (which puts Dufferin Street as a downtown border).

Except it backfires on his "downtown parks" argument. The real downtown Vancouver doesn't come close either, but the version he wants to use is especially bad...it might contain 5 or 6 of those 29 downtown parks he's talking about, and they are pretty small.

Ayan is suggesting Toronto follow Vancouver's lead....yet I fail to see where Vancouver leads. But as we all know, Ayan isn't motivated by his concern for improving Toronto...he's just anti-Toronto trolling.

As I noted already:

Vancouver is the most densely populated city in Canada. Vancouver has significantly higher population density than Toronto (and to the dismay of those with narrow Toronto-centric views, 4 other Canadian cities are ahead of Toronto including Montreal), yet Vancouver manages to ensure that nearly 93% of its land base is within a FIVE-MINUTE walk to a green space (that’s EQUITABLE).

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...&SR=1&S=10&O=D

http://vancouver.ca/green-vancouver/...to-nature.aspx

Most people FAMILIAR with the downtown areas of Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver (in recent years) will agree that downtown Toronto is the least green among the three and the worst in terms of providing downtown residents easy access to quality downtown park spaces. If you don’t want to believe me, feel free to check out downtown Montreal and downtown Vancouver and you will see the difference .

 

[King of Kensington]

I don’t want/have to include Stanley Park as part of downtown Vancouver as geographically it IS located in the downtown Vancouver peninsula. Downtown Vancouver residents don’t need to take a ferry or subject themselves to unpleasant traffic or cross over ugly railway tracks or cross under a hideous expressway in order to access Stanley Park. Millions of people all over the world know/appreciate that and recognize the exemplary quality of the park.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/06/17/best-parks-in-the-world-tripadvisor_n_5503939.html

Stanley Park is remarkable, and I agree it feels less "cut off" than the waterfront and the Islands here.

 

[King of Kensington]

Vancouver is the most densely populated city in Canada. Vancouver has significantly higher population density than Toronto

The City of Vancouver is 45 square miles, the City of Toronto is 243 square miles. If you actually use an "apples" comparison over a similar land area, Toronto comes out higher. The Old City of Toronto has a larger population in pretty much the same land area.

South of 16th Avenue Vancouver feels pretty suburban in character.

 

[Ayan]

The City of Vancouver is 45 square miles, the City of Toronto is 243 square miles. If you actually use an "apples" comparison over a similar land area, Toronto comes out higher. The Old City of Toronto has a larger population in pretty much the same land area.

South of 16th Avenue Vancouver feels pretty suburban in character.

If you look at the top 25 densely populated cities in Canada, there are 5 other cities that could be considered as Vancouver’s suburbs (Mississauga is the only other GTA/Ontario city apart from Toronto - there are many from Quebec). So population density around Vancouver is also higher compared to Toronto/GTA.

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...able-Tableau.cfm?LANG=Eng&T=307&SR=1&S=10&O=D

As far as I know, Vancouver is the only major city in Canada/the US that does not have a freeway running through it. This meant innovative solutions to promote and sustain population and economic growth without a corresponding proportional increase in traffic. This was one of the reasons why Vancouver focussed on creating livable communities in downtown and it has been successful. Between 1996 and 2011, the number of vehicles entering downtown Vancouver decreased (20%) even though during the same time period, downtown Vancouver population (75%) and jobs (26%) increased (page 8 of the linked document). The document also notes that similar progress has been made on a smaller scale across the city.

http://conf.tac-atc.ca/english/annua...18/krueger.pdf