Toronto Parks

[freshcutgrass]

I think the fact that “The City of Toronto has the lowest allocation of park space per person in Canada” is a pretty negative finding! Just look at the maps on page 15 and page 16 (http://torontocentreplan.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/july18_11wellesley.pdf). Thousands of people are moving to downtown but there has not been a corresponding increase in green spaces. It’s poor planning.

Note: Discussion continued from the "Theatre Park" thread.

Not that I don't think we need more parks & rec space, especially downtown....but many of those stats are very misleading and not as "negative" as you might think.

Of course Toronto would have lower park space per person, as it has higher densities, and higher density is the key to good urban living. But Toronto has over 1500 parks well spread through the whole city, and I doubt they count places like the entire Don Valley as a "park". And our parks are just more well used, which isn't a negative at all.

Of course Calgary is going to a higher allocation than Toronto...it's land mass at 825 sqkm, is considerably larger than Toronto, while it's population is only 1.2 million. It does not have dense neighbourhoods or downtown as Toronto has.

The Toronto Centre stats are a little misleading, as they do not include the large parks that are just on the other side of the street from the arbitrary borders used (Queens Park, UofT, Ramsden Park, Cawthra Park, Allen Gardens, Moss Park, St James Park).

Saying NYC has twice the park space as Toronto does isn't wrong, but all that park space is found at the extreme edges of the city where very few of the entire population have what anyone would consider convenient access. Try those numbers for Manhattan and see what happens. And when it comes to recreational facilities, Toronto decimates NYC in that regard.

But there is definitely room for improvement in downtown, where the development and population continues to increase at a blazing pace.

Hey...I have an idea. Would Toronto like another 215 acres of downtown parkland situated a few hundred metres from one of the densest neighbourhoods in the country and where lots of new development is continuing to take place?

It's already zoned parkland and is essentially already empty. We just need to tear down a fence that keeps the public from using it. We would also be saving ourselves millions of dollars in costs and helping the environment at the same time.

It's called Billy Bishop Airport, and it's high time we booted them out (and the TPA along with it)

 

[freshcutgrass]

It was a private foundation, not a city one. It ran for 30+ years until the money ran out. The city doesn't fund private charities.

No one is suggesting the city fund a private charity...I am suggesting the city could have allocated one-time funds, as they have done in the past, to continue an important public sculpture program on city-owned property. But in the current administration's budget cutting climate, things like art are expendable.

It seems to be a moot point, as there seems to be a solution. Just a little late. Thank god for councillors like Pam who can manage to get support outside council to keep important cultural programs from disappearing.

 

[Ayan]

Of course Toronto would have lower park space per person, as it has higher densities, and higher density is the key to good urban living. But Toronto has over 1500 parks well spread through the whole city, and I doubt they count places like the entire Don Valley as a "park". And our parks are just more well used, which isn't a negative at all.

Of course Calgary is going to a higher allocation than Toronto...it's land mass at 825 sqkm, is considerably larger than Toronto, while it's population is only 1.2 million. It does not have dense neighbourhoods or downtown as Toronto has.

Well downtown Vancouver manages to have far more parks (as per the document, “Vancouver has been in the process of building 8 downtown parks over the past 15 years”) than downtown Toronto despite having a significantly higher density. Downtown Vancouver also experienced a condo boom similar to downtown Toronto.

How often do you see mothers with perambulators in Toronto’s ravine trails? They don’t replace the need for neighbourhood parks.

To put the number of parks you quoted into perspective, the vast majority of these parks are less than 25,000 square metres in size.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Well downtown Vancouver manages to have far more parks (as per the document, “Vancouver has been in the process of building 8 downtown parks over the past 15 years”) than downtown Toronto despite having a significantly higher density. Downtown Vancouver also experienced a condo boom similar to downtown Toronto.

How often do you see mothers with perambulators in Toronto’s ravine trails? They don’t replace the need for neighbourhood parks.

To put the number of parks you quoted into perspective, the vast majority of these parks are less than 25,000 square metres in size.

I think this report has you confused. Are you from Toronto?

The tiny area in question from the report is just a small section of downtown, and it's purpose is to force the province to hand over a 2 acre parcel of land it owns for a new park.

And you are simply misinformed....downtown Toronto is much larger and denser than Downtown Vancouver, and has also introduced many new downtown parks and continues to do so. You would know this if you were from Toronto, so because of this and your confusion interpreting what is on the report (not all your fault as it contains wrong information), I assume you are not.

 

[Ayan]

I think this report has you confused. Are you from Toronto?

The tiny area in question from the report is just a small section of downtown, and it's purpose is to force the province to hand over a 2 acre parcel of land it owns for a new park.

And you are simply misinformed....downtown Toronto is much larger and denser than Downtown Vancouver, and has also introduced many new downtown parks and continues to do so. You would know this if you were from Toronto, so because of this and your confusion interpreting what is on the report (not all your fault as it contains wrong information), I assume you are not.

Downtown Toronto is much larger than downtown Vancouver but when it comes to density, the former lags the latter. I posted these profiles before on another thread:

http://www.canurb.org/cui-news/the-value-of-investing-in-canadian-downtowns.html

Note that the Canadian Urban Institute definition of downtown Vancouver does not include the west end, inclusion of which would result in even higher density in downtown Vancouver.

In terms of both number and quality of parks, downtown Toronto lags downtown Vancouver and downtown Montreal. I lived in the downtown areas of all three cities so I am speaking from personal experience.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Downtown Toronto is much larger than downtown Vancouver but when it comes to density, the former lags the latter. I posted these profiles before on another thread:

http://www.canurb.org/cui-news/the-value-of-investing-in-canadian-downtowns.html

Note that the Canadian Urban Institute definition of downtown Vancouver does not include the west end, inclusion of which would result in even higher density in downtown Vancouver.

In terms of both number and quality of parks, downtown Toronto lags downtown Vancouver and downtown Montreal. I lived in the downtown areas of all three cities so I am speaking from personal experience.

Everything you have said is incorrect. Use the entire downtown Van peninsula, if you like, Toronto is far denser in terms of built form. Toronto's downtown residential population is far higher now than the number quoted. Downtown Toronto has 10X the residential population and 10x the working population. And that doesn't include the massive institutions (how many students at the downtown campuses of UofT and Ryerson.?) Then there's the far bigger retail space, far more hotels, far more cultural space. There's really no comparison.

Van's downtown peninsula is pretty dense, but it's small, and the rest of the city is pretty sprawly, unlike Toronto, which has very dense nodes all over the city.

Your parks comment will require more than just your anecdotal evidence.

Here's a map of Toronto parks...they look numerous and well distributed throughout the entire city.

 

[Ayan]

Everything you have said is incorrect. Use the entire downtown Van peninsula, if you like, Toronto is far denser in terms of built form. Toronto's downtown residential population is far higher now than the number quoted. Downtown Toronto has 10X the residential population and 10x the working population. And that doesn't include the massive institutions (how many students at the downtown campuses of UofT and Ryerson.?) Then there's the far bigger retail space, far more hotels, far more cultural space. There's really no comparison.

Van's downtown peninsula is pretty dense, but it's small, and the rest of the city is pretty sprawly, unlike Toronto, which has very dense nodes all over the city.

Your parks comment will require more than just your anecdotal evidence.

Here's a map of Toronto parks...they look numerous and well distributed throughout the entire city.

View attachment 36313

The Canadian Urban Institute figures clearly demonstrate that downtown Vancouver has higher density than downtown Toronto. I am afraid you have to do better than “Toronto's downtown residential population is far higher now than the number quoted.†Just because you find something hard to believe or accept does not mean it’s not true. If anything, it’s an indication of your narrow Toronto-centric views. You are welcome to find out on your own the quality of downtown parks in Vancouver and Montreal. It will do you good.

 

[nfitz]

I think the fact that “The City of Toronto has the lowest allocation of park space per person in Canada†is a pretty negative finding!

Seems rather an odd finding too ... given how surprisingly far I've had to wonder in Vancouver and Montreal just to find a children's playground. Is this number (wherever it is) biased by fewer larger parks?

 

[TrickyRicky]

I'm not going to comment on other cities but on the population numbers for downtown Toronto: The figures on the link are largely 2006 numbers. That might not seem very old except that between 2009 and 2013 40% of 70,500 city-wide residential units were built in downtown Toronto. That works out to about 28,000 units or 7000 per year. The earlier figures noted in the report have similar growth numbers. Starting from a 2006 base of 168,600 people and assuming even one person per unit created, that could be 56,000 new people since the 2006 publication. That could represent a 33% population increase in population downtown 2006-2014, a not insignificant impact on the discussion here.

 

[Ayan]

Seems rather an odd finding too ... given how surprisingly far I've had to wonder in Vancouver and Montreal just to find a children's playground. Is this number (wherever it is) biased by fewer larger parks?

In which downtown neighbourhoods did you live in Vancouver and Montreal? During what time periods?

 

[Ayan]

I'm not going to comment on other cities but on the population numbers for downtown Toronto: The figures on the link are largely 2006 numbers. That might not seem very old except that between 2009 and 2013 40% of 70,500 city-wide residential units were built in downtown Toronto. That works out to about 28,000 units or 7000 per year. The earlier figures noted in the report have similar growth numbers. Starting from a 2006 base of 168,600 people and assuming even one person per unit created, that could be 56,000 new people since the 2006 publication. That could represent a 33% population increase in population downtown 2006-2014, a not insignificant impact on the discussion here.

Well let's not forget that downtown Vancouver population also grew during the same time period. This is based on 2011 data:

"Downtown Toronto has a population of 170,000 and a density of 13,500 people."

http://www.torontocondobubble.com/2013/07/toronto-becoming-manhattanized.html

"When combined with the West End, the downtown peninsula is home to 99,233 residents and a population density of 17,138 per square kilometre. Just for fun, the borough of Manhattan has a population density of 27,394 per sq. km."

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2012/05/vancouver-neighbourhood-population-census-2011/

You can look at Toronto population density by wards (2011 data) here:

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=2394fe17e5648410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

 

[nfitz]

In which downtown neighbourhoods did you live in Vancouver and Montreal? During what time periods?

Montreal? Near Hampton and de Maisoneuve in the 1980s. Still looks well over a km to nearest playground. Toddlers don't walk that far!

Never lived in Vancouver, but I've stayed there with small kids. Near 13th and Tolmie. Ended up walking 2 kilometres with small child to Trimble Park to Saasamat north of 1st Avenue, down a dreadful hill. I almost died walking home carrying child. Lots of hiking trails for adults nearby, but need swingsets for kids. I think there was a school a bit closer, but had ominous warning signs about trespassing. Perhaps I missed something?

I wasn't partifcularly impressed in either city, given how many public playgrounds there are less than 500 metres from my house in Toronto (by my count 4 - though 1 is in a school, but open in evenings), and more within a kilometre.

 

[freshcutgrass]

The Canadian Urban Institute figures clearly demonstrate that downtown Vancouver has higher density than downtown Toronto.

I should use better judgement and ignore you, as you are clearly trolling.

But the Canadian Urban Institute does not make such a claim. You are drawing that conclusion by reading apples-oranges figures. The area used for Toronto is more than 10 times what is used for Vancouver, and you just can't make those kind of comparisons when dealing with such disparities in scale.

I assume you are speaking of residential density only? You can't expect the entire 16 sq. kms of downtown Toronto to maintain such high residential densities when large parts of it are not used for residential purposes. The Financial District is extremely dense, with 104,000 people working in a 0.5 sq. km area, with basically no residential at all. The downtown U of T campus is nearly half the total size of all of the quoted downtown Vancouver (71.5 ha).

But you can certainly come up with the 1.5 sq. kms areas (that constitute what they are calling downtown Van) with much higher densities.

There are more people "in" downtown Toronto (residential + working population) than the entire population of the City of Vancouver. You can cherry-pick whatever you like, but nothing is going to change the fact that downtown Toronto is a far denser place than downtown Vancouver.

As for your contention that downtown Vancouver had been adding new parks while downtown Toronto hasn't...well that is false as well.

 

[Ayan]

Montreal? Near Hampton and de Maisoneuve in the 1980s. Still looks well over a km to nearest playground. Toddlers don't walk that far!

Never lived in Vancouver, but I've stayed there with small kids. Near 13th and Tolmie. Ended up walking 2 kilometres with small child to Trimble Park to Saasamat north of 1st Avenue, down a dreadful hill. I almost died walking home carrying child. Lots of hiking trails for adults nearby, but need swingsets for kids. I think there was a school a bit closer, but had ominous warning signs about trespassing. Perhaps I missed something?

I wasn't partifcularly impressed in either city, given how many public playgrounds there are less than 500 metres from my house in Toronto (by my count 4 - though 1 is in a school, but open in evenings), and more within a kilometre.

I have been discussing parks (which may or may not have playgrounds) in the downtown areas of the three cities. You did not live in downtown Montreal in the 80's. You lived in an area comparable to Scarborough in terms of distance from downtown. Likewise, the area where you stayed in Vancouver is also comparable to Scarborough in terms of distance from downtown. In addition, the experience of living in a city is not the same as visiting a city.

In order to make a valid comparison, you need to look at playgrounds in neighbourhoods that are similar to the neighbourhood where you live now during time periods that are not more than 30 years apart.

 

[Ayan]

I should use better judgement and ignore you, as you are clearly trolling.

But the Canadian Urban Institute does not make such a claim. You are drawing that conclusion by reading apples-oranges figures. The area used for Toronto is more than 10 times what is used for Vancouver, and you just can't make those kind of comparisons when dealing with such disparities in scale.

I assume you are speaking of residential density only? You can't expect the entire 16 sq. kms of downtown Toronto to maintain such high residential densities when large parts of it are not used for residential purposes. The Financial District is extremely dense, with 104,000 people working in a 0.5 sq. km area, with basically no residential at all. The downtown U of T campus is nearly half the total size of all of the quoted downtown Vancouver (71.5 ha).

But you can certainly come up with the 1.5 sq. kms areas (that constitute what they are calling downtown Van) with much higher densities.

There are more people "in" downtown Toronto (residential + working population) than the entire population of the City of Vancouver. You can cherry-pick whatever you like, but nothing is going to change the fact that downtown Toronto is a far denser place than downtown Vancouver.

As for your contention that downtown Vancouver had been adding new parks while downtown Toronto hasn't...well that is false as well.

From page 8 of the Canadian Urban Institute report:

Population density/ha: Vancouver (176), Toronto (104)
Job density/ha: Vancouver (290), Toronto (260)

Yes you should use better judgement.

As for your misquote, this is what I said:

"Well downtown Vancouver manages to have far more parks (as per the document, “Vancouver has been in the process of building 8 downtown parks over the past 15 years”) than downtown Toronto despite having a significantly higher density. Downtown Vancouver also experienced a condo boom similar to downtown Toronto."

In response to your argument:

"Of course Calgary is going to a higher allocation than Toronto...it's land mass at 825 sqkm, is considerably larger than Toronto, while it's population is only 1.2 million. It does not have dense neighbourhoods or downtown as Toronto has."

Although now you are saying:

"The area used for Toronto is more than 10 times what is used for Vancouver, and you just can't make those kind of comparisons when dealing with such disparities in scale."

Wow!