Toronto Ookwemin Minising | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[jje1000]

Can't see this ending up as anything other than Ookwemin. 3 syllables, and it's still acceptable to call a place "Black Cherry (trees)" especially with Cherry street running right there. There was definitely a lot of thought that went into picking the name.

Minising is more catchy, pleasant-sounding if one's speaking without knowledge of the language, better flowing, and easily broken down into memorable syllables, even though it's topographically less relevant (just 'Island').

Mini-Sing or Mi-Nising. I think that'll be what unofficially catches on aside from the rather generic 'Lower Donlands/Portlands' as an umbrella term for the area.

 

[Natika33]

While there's no denying there are larger issues to address too, why does an Indigenous name for something need to be immediately pronounceable to an anglophone? Does not reconciliation include learning to do things the Indigenous way or at least seeing things from an Indigenous point-of-view from time-to-time?

I feel the group tasked with coming up with the name was thoughtfully chosen & they also spent a fair bit of time thoughtfully choosing the name. Despite superficial similarities, this is unlike the Sankofa case in my eyes (which was criticized for NOT consulting with Indigenous people among other things).

I can't speak for others, but when someone asks me to do something that's not really that hard and would mean a lot to them, I tend to feel that consideration and general politeness should prevail and therefore I should just do the thing. Others will do as they do, but I'm going to attempt to say it as close to correctly as I can.

 

[Parkdalian]

Either pronounceable to an English language speaker as-is; or anglicize the spelling such than an English speaker is able to say that word.

I think defining what is "pronounceable" to an English language speaker is a pretty challenging thing to define. English spelling is not consistent. And I think that "Anglicizing" something ... is the opposite point of Reconciliation. Also, who determines if an English speaker is "able to say that word"? There are many English speakers on this forum who say that they can pronounce the word as is.

All of this to say that while I think that the wider public should be able to pronounce new names, there is no clear criteria for what is or isn't "pronounceable." That means that particular criterion shouldn't have veto power over other criteria. As @Natika33 points out, I'm sure the people choosing the name put a lot of thought into the things that you seem to feel they have completely ignored.

I would also argue that Ookwemin Minising name seems to meet your first criteria apart from the first syllable. Not sure why the first syllable is a deal-killer.

 

[Northern Light]

I think defining what is "pronounceable" to an English language speaker is a pretty challenging thing to define. English spelling is not consistent. And I think that "Anglicizing" something ... is the opposite point of Reconciliation. Also, who determines if an English speaker is "able to say that word"? There are many English speakers on this forum who say that they can pronounce the word as is.

All of this to say that while I think that the wider public should be able to pronounce new names, there is no clear criteria for what is or isn't "pronounceable." That means that particular criterion shouldn't have veto power over other criteria. As @Natika33 points out, I'm sure the people choosing the name put a lot of thought into the things that you seem to feel they have completely ignored.

I find this to be contrary to how virtually every culture, ethnicity and nation addresses language.

I would also argue that Ookwemin Minising name seems to meet your first criteria apart from the first syllable. Not sure why the first syllable is a deal-killer.

I don't recall saying anything about any particular syllable here.

 

[Parkdalian]

one of the things I hate about arguments like these, is that it starts to show me how conservatism starts pulling progressive minded people who feel alienated by their movement. And nobody who sees themselves as progressive wants to become ‘that guy’

Thanks for expressing this - I think you are hitting on what some people feel nervous about.

I would argue that the discussion here has been particularly civil and that no one is calling anyone names or what-have-you. It is important to have discussions like this. There is unfortunately a tendency on the wider Internet to think that if someone expresses any slightly different idea about a topic, they need to be called out/canceled - but I for one, do not believe this. This forum is a place of learning, and a place to get exposed to ideas that might change your point of view about things.

It's okay to say you don't like a name! It's just a name. And if you have some particular rational reasons for it, that's great. That's where the discussion happens. I think Northern Light has a lot of great insights about how the city works, but I also disagree with them about some things. That's okay. That feels like the reason this forum exists.

 

[Parkdalian]

I find this to be contrary to how virtually every culture, ethnicity and nation addresses language.

Not sure what this means. Once again, English spelling does not provide a consistent understanding of pronunciation. Every time I see "Queens Quay" I have to remind myself the second word is pronounced "Key" not (as it should be!!!) "Kway." According to your criteria, should we rename "Queens Quay" "Queens Key"?

I don't recall saying anything about any particular syllable here.

No, I said it: "I would also argue that Ookwemin Minising name seems to meet your first criteria apart from the first syllable."

 

[APTA-2048]

Not sure what this means. Once again, English spelling does not provide a consistent understanding of pronunciation. Every time I see "Queens Quay" I have to remind myself the second word is pronounced "Key" not (as it should be!!!) "Kway." According to your criteria, should we rename "Queens Quay" "Queens Key"?

I remember one time taking the streetcar a while ago and these English guys, like literally from England, thought it was pronounced “queue”.

 

[rdaner]

I remember when this thread was about images on updates.

 

[DSCToronto]

I remember when this thread was about images on updates.

Yes, but this is an interesting discussion on 'civics' so it fits here perfectly. Some people only like images and updates and some only seem to like the 'philosophical' discussions. Personally I like the mix though I sometimes DO get tired of too many repetitive images (esp if not actually well photographed!) and often of repetitive 'philosophy'. I just take a break from a thread (or a UTer) if things become too repetitive.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

Updates and discussion on progress doesn't always require images...

 

[PL1]

I remember when this thread was about images on updates.

It's also the (to me) incongruity of this being a "Buildings" thread, yet a lot of the content has clearly been "Infrastructure". It shows how hard it is to bin some new works!

 

[Dr. Snoot]

My biggest problem with Ookwemin Minising is that it doesn't describe the "thing" in an understandable language. Nobody knows what a Minising is and it just means "place". So in order to understand what you're talking about, especially with a stranger, you're almost compelled to say Ookwemin Minising Island, which is a difficult to remember mouthful.

I think a good compromise would have been Ookwemin Island (meaning "black cherry" island). Even if you don't know what Ookwemin means, you can treat is as a name, like Tecumseth Street. Maybe it will end up being said this way, anyway.

 

[milkycontent]

My biggest problem with Oookwemin Minising is that it doesn't describe the "thing" in an understandable language. Nobody knows what a Minising is and it just means "place". So in order to understand what you're talking about, especially with a stranger, you're almost compelled to say Oookwemin Minising Island, which is a difficult to remember mouthful.

I think a good compromise would have been Ookwemin Island (meaning "black cherry" island). Even if you don't know what Ookwemin means, you can treat is as a name, like Tecumseth Street. Maybe it will end up being said this way, anyway.

There are lots of places that are known by names in other languages that include a geographic feature and people come to learn what they mean. Côte d'Azur, Mont-Royal, Rio de Janeiro... the list goes on. I for one learned that Minising is the Ojibwe word for "island" or "at the island" through this naming process, which I would argue is the whole point. As settlers, we can and should all make an effort to learn a bit more about the people who have lived in this place for thousands of years before Europeans and others arrived. The least we can do, really.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

...I think this has always been about who is inconveniencing who with that name here. And that's pretty sad, IMO.

 

[Richard White]

Even if you don't know what Ookwemin means, you can treat is as a name, like Tecumseth Street. Maybe it will end up being said this way, anyway.

Yes but growing up in Ontario I at least know who Tecumseh is.