Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON

generalcanada said:
I think its really important to remember that the greenbelt scandal wasnt one of corruption but incompetence. The minister himself was basically accused of Dereliction of duty. The staffer panicked when given a task way above what he would have been capable of.
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My dude, this is just very naive.
First of all, INCOMPETENCE is not remotely what the Greenbelt scandal was about; neither the AG nor Integrity Commissioner focused on "incompetence" but rather preferential treatment of specific people.
Secondly, the Ford government is LITERALLY (and very publcily, so I don't know how you missed it) currently under a corruption investigation by the RCMP. We'll see if it rises to the level of criminal corruption charges but that it was a form of influence peddling is beyond dispute at this point.
The staffer panicked? Dear lord. That's not at all what they said.

This is just an egregious mischaracterization of what's happened.

generalcanada said:
Im not downplaying how bad the greenbelt scandal is.
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You're not even understanding what it is.

generalcanada said:
But theres a massive difference between interfering in a fair bidding process and what actually happened in the greenbelt decision. Are people skeptical of Ford now? Sure, but can you say the same for IO?
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Uh, yes? That's the whole point?
Ford is the Premier. IO is run by his government and they follow their secret little mandate letter just like Clark and every other minister. I have no knowledge whatsoever of corruption or anything untoward during the RFP process but the point is there are enough red flags to be skeptical. It's why they're now also looking into the MZOs and I would not be surprised if they get around to Highway 413 as well. To think they only put their fingers on the scale for the Greenbelt strikes me as unlikely. But, hey, presumed innocent and such.

generalcanada said:
My point is that OP being done by IO. Which means their hands are 100% clean. This project included
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🤦‍♂️
I suspect I know more about the workings of this government and IO than you. I am not accusing them of anything right now but to conclude their hands are 100% clean? Where are you getting this stuff?

generalcanada said:
Your debating semantics
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First, you're.
Second - not at all.
The FCO does a specific job, like a judge or an OLT tribunal or whatever.
You can't say, "I'm innocent because my friend Bob says so. I was judged!" Either a judge ruled or not.
In this case, either the FCO was involved or they weren't.
They weren't. Not semantics - an objective fact.

generalcanada said:
Oh trust me Id be laughing all day going down the waterslides
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I hear you - but I wouldn't buy any bathing suits just yet.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
My dude, this is just very naive.
First of all, INCOMPETENCE is not remotely what the Greenbelt scandal was about; neither the AG nor Integrity Commissioner focused on "incompetence" but rather preferential treatment of specific people.
Secondly, the Ford government is LITERALLY (and very publcily, so I don't know how you missed it) currently under a corruption investigation by the RCMP. We'll see if it rises to the level of criminal corruption charges but that it was a form of influence peddling is beyond dispute at this point.
The staffer panicked? Dear lord. That's not at all what they said.

This is just an egregious mischaracterization of what's happened.



You're not even understanding what it is.



Uh, yes? That's the whole point?
Ford is the Premier. IO is run by his government and they follow their secret little mandate letter just like Clark and every other minister. I have no knowledge whatsoever of corruption or anything untoward during the RFP process but the point is there are enough red flags to be skeptical. It's why they're now also looking into the MZOs and I would not be surprised if they get around to Highway 413 as well. To think they only put their fingers on the scale for the Greenbelt strikes me as unlikely. But, hey, presumed innocent and such.


🤦‍♂️
I suspect I know more about the workings of this government and IO than you. I am not accusing them of anything right now but to conclude their hands are 100% clean? Where are you getting this stuff?


First, you're.
Second - not at all.
The FCO does a specific job, like a judge or an OLT tribunal or whatever.
You can't say, "I'm innocent because my friend Bob says so. I was judged!" Either a judge ruled or not.
In this case, either the FCO was involved or they weren't.
They weren't. Not semantics - an objective fact.


I hear you - but I wouldn't buy any bathing suits just yet.
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"tHaT iS aN eGrEgIoUs MiScHaRaCtErIzAtIoN"

This is what happens when you only read news reports. Read the actual report before you make comments

Mr. Amato had not previously worked in this ministry, nor had he been a chief of staff – he camefrom the Minister of Transportation’s office where he was director of stakeholder relations.Untrained and unsupervised, in the coming months he oversaw a small team of public servantsthat at the end of October proposed to the minister that 15 properties either be removed fromthe Greenbelt or be redesignated. The matter went before cabinet on November 2, wasapproved, and after a short 30-day public consultation period, the Greenbelt changes took effect

First, Minister Clark misinterpreted the mandate letter’s timing for Greenbelt removals which ledMr. Amato to embark on a rushed process with unfortunate results. Second, he made thedecision to withdraw from the supervision and direction of this highly significant initiative withinhis ministry, leaving it to his recently appointed chief of staff who had never served in thatcapacity before and who was “drinking from a firehose” trying to grasp all of his newresponsibilities. Third, he made the decision to take the proposal to cabinet without havingquestioned Mr. Amato or the deputy minister as to how the properties had been selected forremoval or redesignation
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To sumarize: INCOMPETENCE

Now sure Mr Amato probably is going to get a corruption charge. Still doesnt prove what i said wrong

LOL Please list the red flags? without using terms "parking lot handout" and "99-year lease" which are not red flags at all. The idea that they are is just a personal opinion. It is not a fact.

Can we just timetravel to December when council declines the dev application. Ford is going to use an MZO nothing the city can do about it. As for the expropriation thing. uugh so dumb. just give it to them already, youre not going to win, just delaying the inevitible. Talk about wasting taxpayers money lol

SEMANTICSS:
the ontario line doesnt even use a fairness commissioner. The fairness commissioner isnt ever needed.

AGAIN, IO's hands are clean to say otherwise is to call into question GO Expansion, Ontario Line, all the other projects IO does like courthouses, hospitals and highways.

Show me a source that says an IO's project has had an unfair bidding process. Ill wait. Prove me wrong. until then. IOs hands are 100% clean.

Also refering to mandate letters linking that to the governments scandals. Nope thats not how this works. mandate letters tell which projects IO needs to do. They dont tell which bidder to prefer LOL

"I know more than you" LOL
 
I've read the report(s). You are spinning the conclusions and then you say (which even I didn't) that Amato will likely by charged wth criminal corruption, but also that doesn't prove the process was corrupt. Nonsensical.

You also don't seem to understand Mandate letters which very obviously do not select bidders. Yeesh. I never said that. The point was that MMAH was directed to review Greenbelt policies and MOI was directed to deal with Ontario Place and so they are ultimately governed by the same process, flowing down from the Premier's office. They are not completely different animals.

You don't see red flags or a connection as to how this government does business? That's fine. Many of us feel otherwise and many of the reasons are cogently outlined in the Spacing article. So they've been articulated there and elsewhere here many times.

I can't prove IO did a thing wrong and make no accusations. As I've said, and the article asserts, there are nonetheless enough reasons to justify investigations (LIKE the ones that uncovered what happened with the Greenbelt process, which you just posted) to make that determination. That's the point of investigating (as opposed to going "I don't see anything from here so it's definitely 100 percent clean!") If these find nothing untoward happened, that's great. If you don't even think there's a reason to look, whatever. Then don't ask me for proof.

Agree to disagree. Thats fine but these are not strong points to the contrary you are making, respectfully.
 
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If there is so much incompetence at the provincial government - from the Premier (who was literally recorded on video promising exactly what he would do - and turned out doing) to his Ministers and down to their staffers - why should we have any degree of trust over the decisions by said individuals? The amount of apologia I see in this thread is breathtaking.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
If there is so much incompetence at the provincial government - from the Premier (who was literally recorded on video promising exactly what he would do - and turned out doing) to his Ministers and down to their staffers - why should we have any degree of trust over the decisions by said individuals? The amount of apologia I see in this thread is breathtaking.

AoD
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...and done in a lol fashion, which makes it doubly annoying. /sigh
 

Interesting find by the spacing guys found the actual project schedule for the Science Center.
They still have yet to release the "business case" that for sure ignores cultural heritage.

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curiously it seems as though the parking garage is a part of that project, also seems its being done as a p3 maintenance contract.
 
www.ontariondp.ca

NDP raises questions about Ontario Place’s publicly funded parking garage

QUEEN’S PARK – Marit Stiles and her Official Opposition NDP team today revealed documents obtained through a Freedom of Information request from Infrastructure Ontario show this government had plans to build a parking garage for the private luxury spa at Ontario Place nearly two years before the...
www.ontariondp.ca www.ontariondp.ca
no documents proving what they say

*cue jeopordy music*
 
Northern Light said:
Here's the Deck the NDP mentioned finding through an FOI suggesting the gov't build ~3,000 parking spaces at public expense, prior to awarding anything to Therme:


IO redacted the financial portion.
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Yup its what I suspected, they had chosen the winners internally before announcing them publicly. Happens all the time.
It just shows there was background planning happening before a press release happened

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