Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[steveintoronto]

Toronto's Hudson Yards...

Exactly! Alvin is right in questioning the density of the neighbourhood, but the bottom line is that it's the perfect place for it, it is, at least most and the northern edge, below grade, and *done right* (including park deck over some) it could retain the service shops pretty much as is (building above them would be problematic, but park deck might be easy), but where the present storage tracks are, one has to ask: "Why not?" The steel superstructure for a building above could host the second level of tracks (Grand Central Terminal and others) and then commercial/residential on top of that. The neighbourhood concern would be how much residential density, and how much needed in new road and parking services?

The fact is to find a site along the DRL equal are even partially that footprint is going to take very valuable land out of use for residential, and how much closer to the subway(s) can you get than a development like this?

Agreed with Alvin on Davisville, but I suspect it might be a case of both, not either/or. I'll see what I can Google for other cities examples of doing this.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The trail track would be about the same length as a station, past any crossover tracks. Past the current Osgoode station, St. Patrick Street is about 160 m from University Avenue, Duncan Street is about 232 m from University Avenue. A tail track would need about 150+ m. So likely the trail track will be straight until about Duncan Street. After which, any extension would either go straight along Queen Street West or curve southwest, depending upon the future plans. With tunnels 18 to 20 m under the surface, they should be able to pass under any existing buildings along the way.

The parking lot at 299 Queen Street West (Bell Media Queen Street) may get a temporary use for the ATM's. The bad news would be they may have to use it for the extension as well. Alternatively, they could use the sidestreets, like Duncan Street or John Street.

 

[crs1026]

As I understand it, Greenwood serves two purposes: storage and daily upkeep of trains between runs, and central shops for long-term maintenance and rebuilding of components. I wonder if these need to be thought of separately.

The storage yard may make sense to retain there operationally .... I'm guessing that it is efficient to feed trains onto the line in both directions near the centre. If the central shops - which may not have the same 7/24 immediacy - were relocated, there might be a lot more room for storage tracks, for Line 2 trains and potentially the RL if that makes sense.

This is an area where TTC probably have insight and past learnings on what is needed, that data is invisible to those of us in the bleachers. So We are are just spitballing.

- Paul

 

[Kitsune]

a little bit ot... but what was the use of the greenwood yard block before the subway? Did they really manage to build that in a middle of a neighbourhood with no complaints ?

 

[innsertnamehere]

There is a long term plan to expand Bloor - Yonge - but its sort of seen as an "on top of the DRL" project, that is, used when the DRL isn't even enough. It has something like a billion dollar price tag. I believe the TTC was planning more seriously for it around a decade ago as a solution to crowding issues instead of the DRL, and it has since faded in favour of the new subway line.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

That kind of development works in economic sense in some cities (like Hong Kong, where it is the default) - not sure if a yard smack in the middle of an "established neighbourhood" would be a good sell for a significant amount of density. Davisville might be more likely.

AoD

Davisville already has site-specific zoning that would have permitted a 1978 proposal consisting of four buildings: one 6 storey office/retail building, and three residential structures increasing from 4 to 23 storeys. It was never built due to the early 1980s recession, and I don't think anyone has approached the idea since.

 

[innsertnamehere]

a little bit ot... but what was the use of the greenwood yard block before the subway? Did they really manage to build that in a middle of a neighbourhood with no complaints ?

It appears as though it was vacant land until the yard was built.

Here is some arial images from 1961 showing vacant land:

http://jpeg2000.eloquent-systems.com/toronto.html?image=ser12/s0012_fl1961_it0046.jp2

And 1962, with construction having begun. It is also labelled as "Future east-west subway yards"

http://jpeg2000.eloquent-systems.com/toronto.html?image=ser12/s0012_fl1962_it0047.jp2

There appears to have been an active quarry on the eastern side of Greenwood across the street, too.

 

[TransitBart]

No - Subway Crescent, and the entirety of the TTC parking lots (including the kiss-and-ride) located immediately north-west of the station are all owned by the TTC to allow for a subway yard in the future.

Of course, now that I think about it, that seems to be less likely if the interregional bus terminal is going to be located on those lands....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Looking at the site on Google Maps, there does not appear to be that much real estate. And there are no lots north of the subway station since the condos went in about a decade ago. The space you referred to here (parking lots and kiss n ride) looks like about 1/2 of Greenwood. The Obico yard and Wilson look directly comparable with Obico being about 10% larger. Hard to imagine something smaller sufficing.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Are there any more immediate plans (I'm thinking Spanish solution) to reducing congestion on the Line 2 Bloor-Yonge platform? It is often dangerously crowded.

Line 1 yes, Line 2 don't think so. The "Spanish Solution" (as used on the forum it is bit of a joke term to solve every transit ill real or imagined) was considered in the late 80s, and the scheme will cost an eye-popping multi-hundred million plus today.

https://stevemunro.ca/2008/11/02/yonge-subway-headway-study-1988-part-5/
https://stevemunro.ca/2008/11/03/yonge-subway-headway-study-1988-part-7/

Needless to say, the current TTC isn't touching this one.

AoD

 

[Leo_Chan]

Is there a way to add tracks at Yonge-Bloor that allow eastbound and westbound trains to go south and northbound trains to go east and west? This way, some trains can do a T loop and others can make the normal lines. This also allows bypassing the station though.

 

[smallspy]

There's also the Obico Yard, which was just recently purchased by Metrolinx. Using the North Toronto Yard as a subway yard is an interesting proposition as well.

Actually....

According to Transport Canada who manages these things, Obico Yard is still in the hands of CP. Its title has not transferred over to anyone.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[smallspy]

Looking at the site on Google Maps, there does not appear to be that much real estate. And there are no lots north of the subway station since the condos went in about a decade ago. The space you referred to here (parking lots and kiss n ride) looks like about 1/2 of Greenwood. The Obico yard and Wilson look directly comparable with Obico being about 10% larger. Hard to imagine something smaller sufficing.

There's enough real estate for a yard capable of holding 20 trains or more, along with a facility for cleaning. And that's all that the TTC would ask of it.

This is not a replacement for Greenwood, but rather in addition to it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Kitsune]

Stole this from the East Harbour thread as it illustrates the challenges with the Don crossing:

This shows the the bottom of the Don River at 21m, right at the bedrock level. I believe I heard they to have be around 5m under the water level ? Which would put the tunnel at 26m depth. The East Harbour station is going to likely be the deepest in the system. Add to that the fun created by tunneling through bed rock and I can see why this might take a while to build.

 

[aquateam]

Is there a way to add tracks at Yonge-Bloor that allow eastbound and westbound trains to go south and northbound trains to go east and west? This way, some trains can do a T loop and others can make the normal lines. This also allows bypassing the station though.

Yonge/Bloor station is pretty constrained by all the super tall buildings under around it and the PATH system, so I can't imagine it would be possible to excavate all the area required to construct a Wye. Even just expanding the existing platforms is infeasible. Steve Munro has an explanation here.

The TTC is also not a fan of interlining because of the operational difficulties it places on them, that's why they discontinued interlining shortly after the university line opened (you used to be able to get from any station to any other station without transferring!)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Stole this from the East Harbour thread as it illustrates the challenges with the Don crossing:

This shows the the bottom of the Don River at 21m, right at the bedrock level. I believe I heard they to have be around 5m under the water level ? Which would put the tunnel at 26m depth. The East Harbour station is going to likely be the deepest in the system. Add to that the fun created by tunneling through bed rock and I can see why this might take a while to build.

Ground is at 78 (not 84), bedrock as indicated is at 67. So with 5m buffer we are looking at approximately 15m depth. Highly conjectural given the the figures probably aren't meant to be interpreted this way. 15 is comparable to crosstown?

AoD