Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Straight comparison is meaningless - what's the population density of Madrid, Barcelona and Berlin in the area served by subways? Or even better yet, how much subway coverage is there in Toronto in areas where density can remotely approach that of the examples used?

AoD

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

By 2021 all but one of the TTCs rapid transit lines will connect with Line 1 which is going to put pressure on it both capacity whise and further exacerbate every delay or shutdown on Line 1. Beyond building the Relief Line would it be possible to increase Line 1s reliability by splitting it into two functionally independent lines at Union?

I have always had this in the back of my mind, because any incidents on the Yonge line trickles down onto the University line, and vice versa. But some big things in the way of this happening:

1. You would need one or two new central platforms to act as termini. Where you going to put it/them? How much will it/they cost?
2. Assuming the termini are at Union, why would we throw that area into chaos again after already shelling out so much time and money into the Union second platform project?
3. How does this tie into the Waterfront LRT and it's connection to Union and/or the Yonge and University lines?
4. What is the impact on the flow of the lines? Is having the current U actually better than two termini, barring any service interruptions?

I would have preferred to carry out the original railway lands plan to establish the end of the Line 1 U at Queens Quay area. A perfect integration point with the Waterfront LRT and two north-south stations at Union, one for each line. But I think the ship sailed long ago, it will be decades before we can revisit this. It is only something to leave to fantasy transit maps for now.

 

[WislaHD]

I think all those cities are still too large and too dense to be comparisons to Toronto.

The Japanese cities Nagoya and Sapporo are similar size to Toronto:

Nagoya:

Sapporo:

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think all those cities are still too large and too dense to be comparisons to Toronto.

Like if you want to compare the size of City of Toronto with other world metropoli, check out:

http://mapfrappe.com/?show=2611

(Google Maps/MAPfrappe)

A good chunk of the built up area of BCN fits into the Old City of Toronto. An area of said size is also where a good chunk of the Metro system fits into. Enough said.

AoD

 

[ADRM]

Straight comparison is meaningless - what's the population density of Madrid, Barcelona and Berlin in the area served by subways? Or even better yet, how much subway coverage is there in Toronto in areas where density can remotely approach that of the examples used?

AoD

Also, we have a very impressive above-ground transit network (even if the lion's share of it badly needs to be separated from traffic).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Also, we have a very impressive above-ground transit network (even if the lion's share of it badly needs to be separated from traffic).

That's one unfortunate side effect of the 70s push to save the streetcars (though realistically they wouldn't have replaced some - if any - with subways either, the bravado of converting them by the 1980s is is that).

AoD

 

[ADRM]

Well about separating YUS into two lines don't quote me because I know next to zero about actual operations, but couldn't trains going North on University just use one platform and trains going North on Yonge use the other? With trains crossing over immediately upon exiting Union?

I've always thought YUS has the potential to be a loop if for example it was connected across at Sheppard and then the Northern sections were turned into separate lines, this could allow for a bunch of new connections though again from an operational standpoint I'm pretty sure this would make things even less reliable.

In reference to comparisons to other cities, I'm talking less about the density of lines and more about how line construction was prioritized, It appears that especially in London and Tokyo that orbital lines have been much more popular and this itself only leads to a more diverse set of destinations from development based around transit rather than a single core that all lines lead into.

Maybe a better example of what I was referring to can be found in Sydney a city which is pretty similar to Toronto in size. The network is significantly less dependent on one single line that's necessary to connect to every other line.

It's an interesting thought, though London is the perfect example of there being no magic bullet -- London Underground suffers from far worse overcapacity issues than the Toronto system does.

What I like about London's system, though, is the quality of connectivity within what is a very large metro core. It simply offers a much better alternative to single-occupancy vehicle use pretty much regardless of where you wanna go in and around the city proper. Toronto's subway system is truly crappy in terms of downtown connectivity.

The RL will help improve that reality in a very small way, but it's of course unfunded, very much subject to political whim, and in very serious danger depending on the result of both the next mayoral and provincial election. Either one of Doug Ford or Patrick Brown would kill it dead, I think it's safe to say.

 

[Hopkins123]

I do not think it is fair to compare Toronto to London, Paris, New York or Tokyo.

A more fair comparison is Madrid, Barcelona, or Berlin.

Spain isn't even a wealthy country, certainly not as wealthy as Canada. How did they build such a massive system in a short period of time, meanwhile Canada's largest city has been talking about an east-west subway through their downtown core for over the past 100 years but still has built nothing?

 

[ADRM]

Spain isn't even a wealthy country, certainly not as wealthy as Canada. How did they build such a massive system in a short period of time, meanwhile Canada's largest city has been talking about an east-west subway through their downtown core for over the past 100 years but still has built nothing?

Spain is a wealthy country, the Madrid Metro opened in 1919 and the Barcelona Metro in 1924, and there are a number of transit projects under construction in the GTA and many more in various planning stages.

I, too, share the view that even the sizable raft of projects underway is insufficient and that we lag behind, but again, it's far too simplistic to say "other cities have more transit, we have no transit."

 

[ADRM]

I have wondered if we will see some significant rebuild of YUS at least in the core section if overcapacity continues to be a problem. I mean they could potentially lengthen and widen platforms right?

The streetcars also seem to have alot of untapped potential, when you ride the 510 Spadina it really does blow most of the other lines out of the water, I wonder if new streetcars and perhaps some new exclusive right of ways could spell a sea change for the streetcar network going into the 2020's.

The problem on the downtown lines isn't just platform crowding, though -- it's a train capacity problem; there simply isn't enough transit in Toronto and it's a problem that's only going to get worse.

I totally agree that the streetcar network has huge potential to take up some of that capacity if it's handled in the right way -- most importantly, taking all of the high density routes out of mixed traffic as on Spadina. The Toronto streetcar network should be treated as an above-ground subway, expanded upon, and made as "rapid" as possible, to the detriment of the sacrosanct driver culture that pervades city politics here where necessary. It needs to be faster and much more reliable across the system.

We just don't have the political leadership necessary to make that happen now, unfortunately.

 

[Tuscani01]

Spain isn't even a wealthy country, certainly not as wealthy as Canada. How did they build such a massive system in a short period of time, meanwhile Canada's largest city has been talking about an east-west subway through their downtown core for over the past 100 years but still has built nothing?

Same way Portugal has been able to upgrade it's rail program... Being a member of the EU has benefits in terms of access to funding for roads and rail through the European Investment Bank. Spain has received over 60 Billion Euro in loans through the EIB. Canada has no equivalent yet, but the Liberals are starting up our own investment bank for similar projects.

"The EIB has provided a substantial number of loans (more than 200) in the period 1994-
2006 amounting to in total approximately 22.2 bn€. The overall distribution of loans is: road 28%, rail 23%, urban public transport 24%, aviation 22% and ports 3%. The last decade the loans for the rail sector are dominated by the investments done in the high speed rail lines. The urban public transport loans are almost all related to feasibility studies and construction of new metro lines in Barcelona, Madrid, Malaga, Seville, Valencia and Bilbao. It also includes loans for the purchase and lease of rolling stock. Part of the recent EIB loans is also dedicated to PPP projects, especially in the road sector namely motorways (Santiago Brion, de Los Vinedos) and in urban public transport for the metro in Madrid."

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docgener/evaluation/pdf/evasltrat_tran/spain.pdf

 

[gweed123]

Splitting the line at Union is unlikely, since terminus stations often experience delays, and that's with 2 platforms to use. It would create delay headaches every peak, with the frequencies that both lines operate at.

One of the options that I have proposed in the past though is extending the Yonge line due south from King, building a new station diagonally under the Union Bus Terminal and the rail corridor, and then have it continue west under Harbour St to a new station at Spadina & Lake Shore. The latter station is an optional extension, though it may be rendered impossible by new construction in the next few years. A different alignment could also be taken and build a new station at Harbourfront Centre, negating the need to figure out how to route the Harbourfront LRT into Union. Run it as a through line along QQ, with an underground connection at the Yonge line terminus.

This would allow the existing Union station to be used exclusively by the University line, while the new Union would be exclusively by the Yonge line. The University line could also be extended 1 stop further east under Front to a new St. Lawrence station at Jarvis. Both of these new stations could be purpose-built to maximize efficiency as terminus stations.

 

[WislaHD]

Spain isn't even a wealthy country, certainly not as wealthy as Canada. How did they build such a massive system in a short period of time, meanwhile Canada's largest city has been talking about an east-west subway through their downtown core for over the past 100 years but still has built nothing?

They had autocratic rule for many decades, then EU funds for the decades after that.

As great as democracy is, it is slow for getting infrastructure projects done.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

They had autocratic rule for many decades, then EU funds for the decades after that.
As great as democracy is, it is slow for getting infrastructure projects done.

Though to be fair, they're in the post-Franco age when the greatest expansion happened. It's less to do with democracy per se but the dynamic within a democracy.

Also, they were lucky in terms of geology, having access to cheaper labour, dealing with different building codes and regulatory regimes, EU equalization funds, etc.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/need-for-speed-drives-madrid-miracle/article1327078/

AoD

 

[salsa]

I think all those cities are still too large and too dense to be comparisons to Toronto.

The Japanese cities Nagoya and Sapporo are similar size to Toronto:

Since we're on this topic again, John Tory tweeted this out on Monday. In fact, Chicago exemplifies a city that would never build a 6km, tunneled one-stop subway extension at the network's periphery.