Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[ehlow]

I've been thinking that when we do need a 2nd subway line on Yonge, we could maybe do it slightly west of Yonge on Avenue/Bay, and it could be a more "express" subway (stops every 2km). Any DRL won't work for the massive amount of people who will be living on Yonge in the future.

That's assuming we want a 2nd subway within walking distance of Yonge. Trying to construct more tunnels directly on Yonge seems way too difficult, so Avenue seems like the next choice.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I've been thinking that when we do need a 2nd subway line on Yonge, we could maybe do it slightly west of Yonge on Avenue/Bay, and it could be a more "express" subway (stops every 2km). Any DRL won't work for the massive amount of people who will be living on Yonge in the future.

That's assuming we want a 2nd subway within walking distance of Yonge. Trying to construct more tunnels directly on Yonge seems way too difficult, so Avenue seems like the next choice.

I was going to make a new thread for this idea later this evening...

Do me a favour and stay out of my head.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I've been thinking that when we do need a 2nd subway line on Yonge, we could maybe do it slightly west of Yonge on Avenue/Bay, and it could be a more "express" subway (stops every 2km). Any DRL won't work for the massive amount of people who will be living on Yonge in the future.

That's assuming we want a 2nd subway within walking distance of Yonge. Trying to construct more tunnels directly on Yonge seems way too difficult, so Avenue seems like the next choice.

Well the University Line is walking distance from Yonge Line and is nowhere near capacity. I think a location east of Yonge would be more appropriate.

 

[ehlow]

Well the University Line is walking distance from Yonge Line and is nowhere near capacity. I think a location east of Yonge would be more appropriate.

Yes but it splits off north of Bloor. It's just a thought experiment: what if we wanted to build another subway within walking distance of Yonge because the amount of development on Yonge is just too much for one subway to handle.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes but it splits off north of Bloor. It's just a thought experiment: what if we wanted to build another subway within walking distance of Yonge because the amount of development on Yonge is just too much for one subway to handle.

I think Bay would be our best bet, if your goal is to supplement Yonge capacity.

 

[nfitz]

I've been thinking that when we do need a 2nd subway line on Yonge, we could maybe do it slightly west of Yonge on Avenue/Bay, and it could be a more "express" subway (stops every 2km). Any DRL won't work for the massive amount of people who will be living on Yonge in the future.

That's assuming we want a 2nd subway within walking distance of Yonge. Trying to construct more tunnels directly on Yonge seems way too difficult, so Avenue seems like the next choice.

North of Eglinton, Avenue is too far away. Go up Avenue to St. Clair, and then slide it over to Davisville yard (west side) somehow, and run under Duplex, and then somehow up to Beecroft to Finch station. Stations at Front, King, Queen, Dundas, Carlton, Bloor, St. Clair, Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch.

Ultimately, we are going to exceed the capacity on Yonge, no matter what we do. I'm sure we'll have to do something, one way or another by 2100. But could be 50 or so years away.

 

[ehlow]

North of Eglinton, Avenue is too far away. Go up Avenue to Stl Clair, and then slide it over to Davisville yard (west side) somehow, and run under Duplex, and then somehow up to Beecroft to Finch station. Stations at Front, King, Queen, Dundas, Carlton, Bloor, St. Clair, Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch.

Ultimately, we are going to exceed the capacity on Yonge, no matter what we do. I'm sure we'll have to do something, one way or another by 2100. But could be 50 or so years away.

Yeah, that route sounds better. You're right it would have to be really close to Yonge in order to truly act as a 2nd Yonge line, or express Yonge line.

 

[wopchop]

That's assuming we want a 2nd subway within walking distance of Yonge. Trying to construct more tunnels directly on Yonge seems way too difficult, so Avenue seems like the next choice.

Maybe, but don't forget, the Yonge Line doesn't actually run under Yonge from Wellesley to at least Eglinton. I can't remember how it is routed north of that.

TBM launch/extraction points could definitely be an issue, though. The old Eglinton bus bays would have been a good choice though, IMO.

EDIT: Here's a thought; line goes straight down Yonge from Eglinton, veers southeast at Belmont along Rosedale Valley drive, and then somehow turns directly south under Ted Rogers Way / Jarvis and heads straight to Front Street, start turning southwest behind St. Lawrence market in that parking lot (possible TBM extraction site) and head west to the parking lot in front of the ACC. Pedestrian connection to Union Station under the rail corridor. The new GO Bus Terminal would eliminate this last part, I suppose, but it's fun to dream.

Bay Street down to Union Station obviously seems better from a network perspective, but seems especially difficult to do due to PATH, limited TBM extraction sites, etc.

 

[WislaHD]

Part of the solution to the DRL/RER/ST conundrum ought to be removing the need for more riders to board the Yonge/University subway at all, particularly for a two or three stop ride. Possibiliities: an LRT line connecting the Rosedale Subway Station to Bay and Queen - a short underground section north of Bloor, emerging in the middle of Bay north of Bloor (has to be aboveground over Bloor due to the depth of the current Bay subway station, could connect with Bloor line with a middle of road station like the old Yonge line-Bloor Streetcar stop) and running on a separated right of way with intensive traffic priority down to Queen. Gives people an alternative way around Yonge/Bloor. Or perhaps an LRT line from Eglinton/Avenue Road to the lake along Avenue Road/University. Or down Sherbourne or Church.

A BRT/Express Bus that goes down Mt. Pleasant-->Jarvis would also be an effective way to provide relief. I guarantee it will be time competitive for many people over taking the subway.

North of Eglinton, Avenue is too far away. Go up Avenue to Stl Clair, and then slide it over to Davisville yard (west side) somehow, and run under Duplex, and then somehow up to Beecroft to Finch station. Stations at Front, King, Queen, Dundas, Carlton, Bloor, St. Clair, Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch.

The Davisville Yard-Duplex portion is actually feasible if the TTC-lands have yet to be developed. However, I doubt they will be undeveloped by the time we are seriously considering a second Yonge subway.

Ultimately, we are going to exceed the capacity on Yonge, no matter what we do. I'm sure we'll have to do something, one way or another by 2100. But could be 50 or so years away.

This will likely be future Toronto's Second Avenue Subway or CityRail equivalent in scope and grandiosity. Kinda fitting considering the way we are effectively building the continent's "longest, thinnest downtown" along Yonge.

I can't help but feel however a lot of the issue we have is that we currently have people getting on the Yonge subway that shouldn't be. People are taking trips from the north-east and north-west of the city on bus towards the Yonge line. York region is even more problematic with bringing tons of passengers down Yonge to Finch station. If Toronto had an effective commuter rail system, these people would be choosing to take commuter rail towards their destination (or closest interchange station) rather than flooding into the Yonge line.

 

[dunkalunk]

So, here's an idea about with what to do with the Don Subdivision; tunnel it under Don Mills Centre and continue it north along the Richmond Hill GO line alignment.

This would require the construction of a new viaduct to the south of the existing CP viaduct south of Leslie. It would also require a crossover/under of the CP mainline at some point to avoid conflicts with freight.

Tunnelling under Don Mills Road for a GO line for RER service is probably not the most feasible thing in the short term. It's definitely lower on the priority list than much of the GO electrification. However, as options become more limited for relieving Yonge, I can see this kind of rail connection becoming more feasible.

 

[Rainforest]

So, here's an idea about with what to do with the Don Subdivision; tunnel it under Don Mills Centre and continue it north along the Richmond Hill GO line alignment.

This would require the construction of a new viaduct to the south of the existing CP viaduct south of Leslie. It would also require a crossover/under of the CP mainline at some point to avoid conflicts with freight.

Tunnelling under Don Mills Road for a GO line for RER service is probably not the most feasible thing in the short term. It's definitely lower on the priority list than much of the GO electrification. However, as options become more limited for relieving Yonge, I can see this kind of rail connection becoming more feasible.

I like the concept.

However, I would consider making DRL (your red line) a part of GO RER system. Basically, splitting off GO RER somewhere east of Union, going in the tunnel pretty much the way you drew the red line, and then becoming GO RER again (black line) just north of Don Mills.

It this is technically possible at all, it should be both cheaper (one less line to upgrade between Union and Eglinton) and more effective in relieving Yonge (higher frequency since the service won't depend on the flood-prone southern section in the Don Valley).

 

[diminutive]

Re: 2nd Yonge Line

This should never happen. Toronto would literally be the only place on earth that would build an entirely duplicative subway under a current one.

To begin with, Yonge's spacing is already pretty 'express,' especially north of Eglinton. Maybe Rosedale, Summerhill, Davisville & NYCC could be excluded from an 'express' route, but that wouldn't translate to huge time savings over the existing route. It would be silly to get rid of anything south of Bloor since those are major destinations.

Second, it's not even like most Yonge riders live ON Yonge. Most passengers transfer from surface or connecting RT routes. It makes more sense to improve RT coverage. That would save riders from having to schlep to Yonge in the first place.

Third, the actual Yonge corridor isn't particularly dense by global standards. Willowdale, for instance, is substantially lower density than Queens. Even Ward 27 is less dense than, say, Brooklyn, and that's probably the densest part of the Yonge corridor. It defies imagination that Yonge would be the first and only place on earth that needs to build a second subway.

Further to that, much of the Yonge corridor is considered "stable" and off limits to densification. As areas like this become richer and richer, they'll fight any densification tooth and nail. So densification will mostly be contained to a few strips directly fronting onto Yonge.

Yonge's capacity issues stem pretty directly from the fact that we've got an obsession with building E-W rapid transit that can only flow onto Yonge to reach downtown (BD, Sheppard, now Eglinton). I think we may be one of the only cities where the main rapid transit interchange isn't actually close to the CBD.

 

[Edward Skira]

I agree with you. One point though, wouldn't the 4 track lines in New York (2 local and 2 express) basically constitute 2 lines in 1 (i.e. second subway)?

 

[ehlow]

Re: 2nd Yonge Line

This should never happen. Toronto would literally be the only place on earth that would build an entirely duplicative subway under a current one.

To begin with, Yonge's spacing is already pretty 'express,' especially north of Eglinton. Maybe Rosedale, Summerhill, Davisville & NYCC could be excluded from an 'express' route, but that wouldn't translate to huge time savings over the existing route. It would be silly to get rid of anything south of Bloor since those are major destinations.

Second, it's not even like most Yonge riders live ON Yonge. Most passengers transfer from surface or connecting RT routes. It makes more sense to improve RT coverage. That would save riders from having to schlep to Yonge in the first place.

Third, the actual Yonge corridor isn't particularly dense by global standards. Willowdale, for instance, is substantially lower density than Queens. Even Ward 27 is less dense than, say, Brooklyn, and that's probably the densest part of the Yonge corridor. It defies imagination that Yonge would be the first and only place on earth that needs to build a second subway.

Further to that, much of the Yonge corridor is considered "stable" and off limits to densification. As areas like this become richer and richer, they'll fight any densification tooth and nail. So densification will mostly be contained to a few strips directly fronting onto Yonge.

Yonge's capacity issues stem pretty directly from the fact that we've got an obsession with building E-W rapid transit that can only flow onto Yonge to reach downtown (BD, Sheppard, now Eglinton). I think we may be one of the only cities where the main rapid transit interchange isn't actually close to the CBD.

I was talking about pretty far in the future when (or if) Yonge is a continuous Manhattan-level density corridor and network expansion like the DRL/GO RER/ST/Whatever are done.

I agree with you. One point though, wouldn't the 4 track lines in New York (2 local and 2 express) basically constitute 2 lines in 1 (i.e. second subway)?

Yes, that's what I was thinking of, but also the fact that Manhattan has subway lines going in parallel but within walking distance of each other in order to handle the load.

 

[Johnny Au]

Yes, that's what I was thinking of, but also the fact that Manhattan has subway lines going in parallel but within walking distance of each other in order to handle the load.

Don't forget that New York City's parallel subway lines were run by competing transit companies before they were merged.