Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

salsa said:
Tory rail plan nudges TTC relief line off track

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ef-line-off-track/article21529398/?cmpid=rss1
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Despite the headline, there's nothing in the article itself that indicates that Tory's DumberThanTrack plan does actually impact the DRL with any certainty. There's more in the article about the union's proposal than the DRL.

The relevant text in the article about the DRL is:
... (Byford) said that one outcome could be a change in the timing of an underground relief line.

“I don’t think that need goes away, the mayor-elect hasn’t said that that need has gone away. The critical issue will be when will that additional capacity be needed,” Mr. Byford said.

“What you have to do is do the modelling, and that process is not yet been completed. So that’s something we’ve got in hand at the moment. You’ve got to do the modelling, with SmartTrack now as one of the base assumptions of that modelling.”
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So Tory HASN'T said that DRL goes away. Byford says they haven't done the demand modelling yet for the DRL. And that they'll do the model including the inclusion of the Tory's plan.

So if I'm wrong, and the 15-minute rail service between Kennedy and Union does actually significantly relieve Bloor-Yonge station, then the DRL is delayed. But I doubt it will actually do relieve Bloor-Yonge station, or the southbound Yonge ridership, particularly the critical points between Rosedale and Bloor, or even that much from Bloor to Wellesley.
 
nfitz said:
So if I'm wrong, and the 15-minute rail service between Kennedy and Union does actually significantly relieve Bloor-Yonge station, then the DRL is delayed. But I doubt it will actually do relieve Bloor-Yonge station, or the southbound Yonge ridership, particularly the critical points between Rosedale and Bloor, or even that much from Bloor to Wellesley.
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The two ways to actually relieve Yonge (not just the Y-B transfers to increase frequency) are

  1. Extend the DRL east up to Finch (Seneca) to actually intercept the riders before they reach Yonge.
  2. Improve the Richmond Hill GO and run more frequency.
 
innsertnamehere said:
no way you can get that done in 7 years like Tory wants.
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Not the Phase 2, but the Phase 1 can at least be under construction within 7 years. The idea is that Phase 1 would be implemented as an interim improvement until the Phase 2 projects (all of which are more extensive than upgrading a rail corridor) would take longer.
 
BurlOak said:
  1. Extend the DRL east up to Finch (Seneca) to actually intercept the riders before they reach Yonge.
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The previous modelling indcates that just extending it to Pape get's enough people off of Yonge south of Bloor to pay off. Getting it up Don Mills to Finch would help too ... but there's a long 6 km gap from Wynford to Sheppard with precious little trip generators. I'd think for now, building it to Eglinton, and then building LRT from Eglinton to Highway 7 would get you a lot more bang for the buck (and provide almost as much relief for Yonge).

BurlOak said:
Improve the Richmond Hill GO and run more frequency.
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Would have to significantly reduce travel times too. The current time from Richmond Hill to Union is 40 to 42 minutes. The recent Metrolinx study only assumed travel time would on a frequent (once every 20-minute) GO would be 42 minutes. Electrifying would save a bit of time, but there's also talk of adding stations between Oriole and Union.

The current TTC travel time (if they were ever to fix the tracks south of Eglinton!) is 28 minutes from Finch to Union. Metrolinx has estimated the travel time from Richmond Hill subway station to Finch is 12 minutes, for a total travel time by subway of only 40 minutes.

So if at best, the travel time on GO is the same as the subway to Union, and the subway goes every 2 minutes, while GO is every 20 minutes, why would many people switch? Especially as most people's destination is north of Wellington Steet, and they'd be quicker to travel to King (or Queen, or Dundas) by subway, than walk up from Union Station?
 
gweed123 said:
I'm starting work on a document that thoroughly explains how the DRL can be incorporated into the SmartTrack plan. It's based off my GO REX map that I posted a bit ago, with the Red Line service basically being SmartTrack. What I intend to argue is that SmartTrack can be completed in two phases:

1) Run the abbreviated Lakeshore, Brampton, Pearson, Markham, and Scarborough (to STC) GO REX lines into Union.

2) Construct the Central Tunnel, Don Mills Tunnel, Scarborough Extension, Square One Spur Tunnel, North Mississauga/South Brampton Spur, and Richmond Hill GO REX, and route all of the Red Line services through the Central Tunnel. This would leave the Toronto-centric services running through the Central Tunnel, and the 905-centric services running through Union, thereby eliminating the Union capacity crunch.
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I’ll be looking forward to it. And perhaps leave some extra space at River St for a connection to the Don Branch proposal :)
I think this Central Tunnel is pivotal, inevitable, and should be studied immediately - regardless of any one plan progressing. It’s less than 7km; which is really not all the much distance (particularly in relation to any suburban subway extensions).

-where will stations be located;
-what’s a realistic amount of stations;
-what arterial will it follow;
-quad or double-tracked;
-how and where will the surface portals be aligned;
-how deep will the tunnel have to be (especially when navigating under the Don Valley, interceptor sewers, the PATH, enormous foundations, and buried rivers like the branches of Garrison Creek);
-costs;

Lots of questions, but one answer remains the same: downtown Toronto needs a crosstown tunnel between Bloor and the lake.

nfitz said:
The current time from Richmond Hill to Union is 40 to 42 minutes.

The current TTC travel time (if they were ever to fix the tracks south of Eglinton!) is 28 minutes from Finch to Union. Metrolinx has estimated the travel time from Richmond Hill subway station to Finch is 12 minutes, for a total travel time by subway of only 40 minutes.
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Your numbers definitely help to make a case for a Richmond Hill-DRL hybrid.
 
nfitz said:
The previous modelling indcates that just extending it to Pape get's enough people off of Yonge south of Bloor to pay off. Getting it up Don Mills to Finch would help too ... but there's a long 6 km gap from Wynford to Sheppard with precious little trip generators. I'd think for now, building it to Eglinton, and then building LRT from Eglinton to Highway 7 would get you a lot more bang for the buck (and provide almost as much relief for Yonge).
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+1

Although the tendancy is that people want to connect the DRL to Don Mills station on Sheppard, especially since it seems like everything is conspiring to make people on Sheppard east have as many transfers as possible.

E.g.
Sheppard east to York University: bus -> SELRT ->Sheppard Subway -> bus -> Spadina Subway
Sheppard East to Humber College: bus -> SELRT -> Sheppard subway -> Yonge subway -> Finch LRT
Sheppard East to downtown: bus -> SELRT -> Sheppard subway -> Yonge subway
OR bus -> SELRT ->Don mills LRT -> DRL
 
aquateam said:
+1

Although the tendancy is that people want to connect the DRL to Don Mills station on Sheppard, especially since it seems like everything is conspiring to make people on Sheppard east have as many transfers as possible.

E.g.
Sheppard east to York University: bus -> SELRT ->Sheppard Subway -> bus -> Spadina Subway
Sheppard East to Humber College: bus -> SELRT -> Sheppard subway -> Yonge subway -> Finch LRT
Sheppard East to downtown: bus -> SELRT -> Sheppard subway -> Yonge subway
OR bus -> SELRT ->Don mills LRT -> DRL
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That's not an unusually large amount of transfers. A typical trip on the TTC could be Eglinton & Bayview to Liberty Village for example:

Eglinton bus->Yonge subway->Bloor subway->Dufferin bus

Yeah you could take the King streetcar but it's often slower than taking Bloor across. I would think many trips have 2 transfers or more.
 
aquateam said:
Although the tendancy is that people want to connect the DRL to Don Mills station on Sheppard, especially since it seems like everything is conspiring to make people on Sheppard east have as many transfers as possible.
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There just isn't the demand for that though. As a former regular on the 25, the demand just drops significantly north of Eglinton, and especially north of Lawrence. And the vehicle speed picks up too!
 
The point of a don mills subway north of eglinton is that people who would otherwise take Lawrence, York mills, finch busses to yonge would instead get off at don mills.
 
44 North said:
I’ll be looking forward to it. And perhaps leave some extra space at River St for a connection to the Don Branch proposal :)
I think this Central Tunnel is pivotal, inevitable, and should be studied immediately - regardless of any one plan progressing. It’s less than 7km; which is really not all the much distance (particularly in relation to any suburban subway extensions).

-where will stations be located;
-what’s a realistic amount of stations;
-what arterial will it follow;
-quad or double-tracked;
-how and where will the surface portals be aligned;
-how deep will the tunnel have to be (especially when navigating under the Don Valley, interceptor sewers, the PATH, enormous foundations, and buried rivers like the branches of Garrison Creek);
-costs;

Lots of questions, but one answer remains the same: downtown Toronto needs a crosstown tunnel between Bloor and the lake.
Click to expand...

Agreed completely. An E-W tunnel between Bloor and the Lake is inevitable, the question at this point is what form should it take and what network should it be integrated into. It will no doubt be a hugely complicated project. By integrating it into the GO REX network, it maximizes relief by extending far deeper into the suburbs than almost any TTC Subway option could, and it provides relief to Union by allowing GO REX trains to bypass it completely.

To address your points:

1+2) Stations would only be moderately wider than Bloor-Danforth spacing, because the express component is served by the Green and Blue lines (see my map).
3) I'm using Wellington through the core, Front St in the east, and King St in the west.
4) I'm using a double track configuration, since most of the express and semi-express trains will be using Union instead.
5) There will be two portals on each end. The main western portal will be in the Georgetown corridor between King and Queen, with an all-surface station at Queen & Dufferin. The 2nd western portal will be for Lakeshore only, and it will be located east of Roncesvalles to allow for a surface station there. The main eastern portal would be just east of Gerrard Square for every line except Richmond Hill. The 2nd portal would be just northwest of Lawrence & Don Mills, in the Richmond Hill GO corridor.
6) Likely pretty damn deep, haha.
 
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timio said:
Why not? I think it should go from North Bay to Sarnia via St George Station. Thoughts?
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That makes no sense. Should go through Bloor-Yonge instead. To do anything would be building Transfer City, and insult to everyone who lives north of Steeles!
 
@gweed.
Good stuff. Sorry for the bombardment of questions, they were supposed to be somewhat rhetorical.

@salsa. I think its routing is a good debate. Even though it's a straight 7km gap, the project is complex with significant scope. 99% of DRL maps I've seen seem glaze over its routing through downtown. Perhaps a neutral street like Richmond would be a good compromise in the long-running King vs Queen debate? Or maybe change it up with arcs instead of lines.
 
Richmond isn't a good compromise in the long-running King vs Queen debate, because that debate is ill-informed in the first place. Wellington/Front is easily is best route through the core and the east as it provides the best connections to St. Andrew and King stations while also allowing for an underground walkway below Bay Street to Union. Another advantage of those streets is that the existing streetcars won't be disrupted during construction, and that is a big deal, an under-appreciated one frankly. Finally, there's more ability to intensify along and close to Front than along Queen.

Not sure about the best route for the west side of it yet.

42
 
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