Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[MisterF]

Well, far be it for me to judge whether Metrolinx or the TTC's numbers are more reliable. The TTC's are certainly more recent.

I would be skeptical of the DRL being busier than the BD line given it's shorter length (fewer destinations...).

Regardless, if it does end up being 17,500 pphpd, that's not hugely bigger than the 15,000 pphpd the Canada Line was designed to achieve, or what most medium capacity systems or light metros or whatever the name is are designed to handle, not the sort of 30-50k/pphpd that fully built out subways ought to achieve.

I'd believe that it would have higher peak point ridership. The fact that it would go through the heart of downtown rather than skirting the edge of it gives it a huge advantage, and the Bloor line goes through lower density areas.

I don't have anything to base this on but my gut tells me to trust the Metrolinx numbers more. The TTC downplayed the DRL for years, and when it grudgingly accepted that it should be built, it was as a last resort, after every other option was exhausted. Other cities design subway systems to maximize coverage over the central area. Toronto squeezes every last drop out of a single line while the rest of the core puts up with streetcars in mixed traffic. It's truly bizarre thinking.

If we built the DRL as ICTS we would need another relief line almost immediately. Which in theory should be perfectly doable. One line along King and another along Dundas for example. One could loop up to Bloor and points north while the other could go to, say, the Beaches. A system like that would bring rapid transit within walking distance of basically the entire central city and would be very well used. Madrid's subways have small, narrow trains but the sheer number of lines makes up for the lack of capacity on any single one. Prague and Rome are building new lines through the hearts of their old cities and improving coverage. Montreal has better downtown coverage too. Sadly, Toronto doesn't think that way. If a DRL ever happens it will be the last downtown subway expansion of our lifetimes. So it needs to have the highest capacity possible.

 

[ssiguy2]

Don Mills deserves a subway. Toronto needs to stop treating the people of Don Mills like a redheaded step child. Build it to Don Mills on day one and then you can have a loop to Downsview, STC, and Eglinton for a true Yonge relief line.

Then Toronto should just start building it immediately.

Oh, scratch that, I forgot that little thing called money that keeps getting in the way. Don't you just hate it when you make great plans and then says "we don't have any money".............it just ruins everything. You would think that seeing Toronto is sooooo world class, you would think some government or company would volunteer to pay for all of it.

I'm obviously being bit sarcastic but only a bit. Torontonians keep making these grand plans that you will never see the light of day. Seriously, is there a point to all of this that seems to have escaped me? There is a REAL world out that people are forced to live in but obviously Toronto didn't get the memo.

Toronto and it's very long suffering commuters are running out of patience and with good reason. Even if the money was found {although only the Creator knows where} it won't be done till at least 2030 and Torontonians can't wait that long. Toronto needs options that can be brought in IMMEDIATELY, there is no time to waste and that leaves few options.

Express buses from different points to Union could be used but not very effectively as they would have to use the same traffic chocked roads as the cars. HOV along the 2 city freeways, Gardiner and DVP, would help solve that issue but the chances of that are as good as the DRL being built in 5 years. That really only leaves one option...............using the GO rail corridors.

By allowing people to use their TTC pass for free travel on GO then it would ease the Yonge capacity issues and offer far faster and superior service than they have now. Whether those be current double-decker trains, one level DMU, Flexity Tram-trains {which would not need to use Union station due to being able to run on regular roadways or Railbuses that can do the same.

 

[innsertnamehere]

seeing Toronto is sooooo world class, you would think some government or company would volunteer to pay for all of it.

See Big Move and the Provinces spring 2014 budget.

Torontonians keep making these grand plans that you will never see the light of day. Seriously, is there a point to all of this that seems to have escaped me? There is a REAL world out that people are forced to live in but obviously Toronto didn't get the memo.

what grand plans? other than fantasies drawn up on UT, there hasn't really been any official input on the DRL since 1985. It is now coming, through the big move.

Toronto and it's very long suffering commuters are running out of patience and with good reason. Even if the money was found {although only the Creator knows where} it won't be done till at least 2030 and Torontonians can't wait that long. Toronto needs options that can be brought in IMMEDIATELY, there is no time to waste and that leaves few options.

I guess I, and Metrolinx, and the Provincial Liberal Government are the Creator then, considering funding for both the GO lines AND the DRL are coming from this spring's budget and the Big Move. Oh, and the tenative opening date of the DRL as of right now? 2024. Also, the fact is that (GASP) infrastructure takes time to build. (WHO WOULDA THUNK?)

Express buses from different points to Union could be used but not very effectively as they would have to use the same traffic chocked roads as the cars. HOV along the 2 city freeways, Gardiner and DVP, would help solve that issue but the chances of that are as good as the DRL being built in 5 years. That really only leaves one option...............using the GO rail corridors.

Not only would the Bus lanes not be politically feasible, they would be impossible. you would have to deal with a literal constant stream of busses to handle 15,000 PPHD, (that is around a bus every 12 seconds) you simply cannot do that with existing infrastructure. Not only does the Gardiner not intersect the Bloor Line, but the DVP runs around 100ft below the Bloor line with no nearby exit to allow for buses to connect to it.

Then you have problems with the GO line solution.
1. not enough space at Union
2. Nobody is going to take even a 10 minute frequency GO train if the subway runs every 2 minutes.
3. Not enough Trackage
4. GO trains do not intersect the eastern Bloor line (the portion that needs relieving the most) until Kennedy, which is the end of the Bloor line. This renders any "relief" pointless as you will effectively be redirecting a single stations traffic.
5.Western GO Operations do not have the infrastructure installed for a proper transfer point at Bloor. It is literally an outdoor walk across a street to transfer to GO, something that nobody would do unless the transfer is saving something like 10 minutes of travel time, including the transfer. (Which it won't) If you want to fix this with a tunnel, you would be looking at only a couple of years of use before the DRL itself opens. Not to mention the fact that the University Line doesn't really need relieving.

By allowing people to use their TTC pass for free travel on GO then it would ease the Yonge capacity issues and offer far faster and superior service than they have now.

Maybe. but you run into previously stated issues.

Whether those be current double-decker trains

This is the only one that would work without an extensive infrastructure construction program rivalling the length of a subway timeline but with way less benefits. also see previously stated problems with this style of service.

one level DMU,

This would work if you could run 3 minute frequency on mixed use rails (which you can't). not to mention that you would likely need dedicated trackage for anything over 15 minute frequency. (meaning that the eastern portion of the Stouffville/lakeshore east line would have to go from 3 to 5 tracks, in a space that only has room for 4, requiring extensive expropriation, leading to a similar completion timeline as the DRL with horrid comparable benefits and other problems as outlined earlier.)

,Flexity Tram-trains, which would not need to use Union station due to being able to run on regular roadways or Railbuses that can do the same.

Not possible. You cannot run Flexity trams on mixed rails for several reasons.

1. electrification. you would need to electrify the Line, raising capital costs and lengthing the timespan to that only 3 or 4 years off of building the DRL.
2. you cannot run Flexity trams on mixed rails, period. they don't meet safety standards, and could not, even if you wanted to, be operated on mixed rails with GO trains, Freight trains, and VIA trains.
3. Capacity, assuming it could be built as an affective relief line, which it can't. (see previously stated problems above)




Basically, The DRL is the best option for several reasons.

1. Go relief doesn't make sense because of the location of the GO lines.
2. Buses relieving a subway doesn't make any f***ing sense
3. you cannot run appropriate frequencies for 15,000+ PPHD on mixed rails that effectively competes with existing subway services
4. all solutions (that are actually possible, yet alone make sense) have long time frames within a couple of years of building the proper solution.

A nice metrolinx graph showing Big Move Timelines. I base my 2024 opening of the DRL on the fact that DRL design work has already started. (meaing a 2013 start and 11 years process as stated on the graph)

http://torontoist.com/2013/05/can-the-metrolinx-investment-strategy-succeed/

 

[gweed123]

@insertnamehere: Bang on on almost all counts. Stop-gap solutions don't make much sense when the right solution is in the same timeframe ballpark. Two small points though:

1) A pedestrian link from Dundas West Station to Bloor GO/UPX Station will be in place when UPX launches in 2015. Exit will be at the east end of the platform.

2) Electrifying GO must be seen as a supplement to the DRL, and needs to happen regardless, although for very different reasons.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I am aware electrification should happen regardless, but what I was trying to show was that it requires time, which ssiguy2's post was saying wasn't really required.
As for the Dundas Tunnel, could you link me to it? that would be a 200ish meter long tunnel, I would be interested in seeing the plans for it.

 

[ssiguy2]

So what do Torontonians do until the DRL is built someday......grin and bear it? They've been doing that for decades and their patience is running out.

Even if Queen's Park finds the money you are assuming that the Libs will get re-elected, not a good assumption. The Tories won't offer any help especially to non-Tory voting downtowners and the NDP will not even entertain extra taxes or fees for transit expansion. When I was at U. of T. in the late 1980s, the DRL was "right around the corner" and the rest is history.

As far as the Railbuses go, you are very possibly right about not getting Transport Canada on board but Flexity Tram-trains are being used throughout Europe along standard commuter rail corridors. I don't think this would be a problem particulariy where the track has been doubled and where most at-grade crossings have been eliminated. GO actually owns some of these lines so it should be able to get some form of clearance or waiver. This is a proven, working technology being used in Europe and these trains are from every politician's favorite company, Bombardier.

When is the UPX station platform completed and couldn't it be used for a trial period BEFORE 2016? That would relieve some of the Union capacity problems and Tram-trains don't even need Union station as they can be merged off on their own tracks near Union.

I am NOT in the slightest saying that the DRL isn't needed. It was needed 50 years ago but even if funding eventually comes thru it will still be no good to anyone till it's completion. Torontonians need IMMEDIATE relief from their long commutes and inadequate transit system. These are things that could be up and running very quickly starting with total transfer GO service using the current fleet. Like I stated earlier they could do a 6 month experiment and find out what people think of it and whether it is worth pursuing long term.

I cannot for the life of me think of one downside of such an experiment and if they find that the system quickly soars well over capacity then that in and of itself tells a huge story about how many Torontonians would take GO if they could afford it.

 

[innsertnamehere]

... yes they grin and bear it as the other options of relief require similar time frames.

who says the Libs need to get re-elected? they simply need to pass a budget. Even if they get sent to the polls, they are currently only polling a couple percentage points below the PCs, which is easily made up for with inevitable polling movement during the run up to elections and the fact that the Liberals have a more preferable layout of seats. (PC votes tend to be fairly spread out throughout the province, while Liberal votes are largely concentrated within urban ridings allowing for fewer votes to go further)
All you need is a year or two after the tax is passed for it to fade from people's minds. people have already forgotten about the HST and that was a huge point in the 2011 election. If the tax can survive the first couple of years, it can survive the entire 15.

Also good luck ferrying thousands of passengers an hour on 15 minute frequencies with small 2 car trains featuring large luggage storage areas and large leather seats. Never mind the fact that the university line DOESN'T even need relief, especially not desperate measures like that.

 

[gweed123]

I am aware electrification should happen regardless, but what I was trying to show was that it requires time, which ssiguy2's post was saying wasn't really required.
As for the Dundas Tunnel, could you link me to it? that would be a 200ish meter long tunnel, I would be interested in seeing the plans for it.

There is a thread on it on here, I believe it's called the Dundas West Mobility Hub. And the tunnel is actually quite short, because the platform extends most of the way. The existing exit is on the far western side of the platform.

 

[Translude15]

@insertnamehere: Bang on on almost all counts. Stop-gap solutions don't make much sense when the right solution is in the same timeframe ballpark. Two small points though:

1) A pedestrian link from Dundas West Station to Bloor GO/UPX Station will be in place when UPX launches in 2015. Exit will be at the east end of the platform.

2) Electrifying GO must be seen as a supplement to the DRL, and needs to happen regardless, although for very different reasons.

This is a little off topic gweed, but has Metrolinx come out with any figures pertaining to reduced travel times for GO with electrification? I commute from Clarkson to Union on Lakeshore West and an all stop trip takes about 32 minutes and an express train is about 22 minutes. With faster acceleration, I'm guessing the electrification would shave off 5 minutes for a regular trip and 7 minutes for an express trip.

 

[gweed123]

This is a little off topic gweed, but has Metrolinx come out with any figures pertaining to reduced travel times for GO with electrification? I commute from Clarkson to Union on Lakeshore West and an all stop trip takes about 32 minutes and an express train is about 22 minutes. With faster acceleration, I'm guessing the electrification would shave off 5 minutes for a regular trip and 7 minutes for an express trip.

To be honest, I have no idea. It may be somewhere in the electrification studies (which I have read, but I can't remember that detail off the top of my head). Good question though, maybe someone else can answer that, haha.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I remember reading time reductions somewhere, but they varied on what version of operations that were run. if they kept the current train cars and essentially stuck an electric EMU on the front, service would only improve by 2 or 3 minutes, IIRC. other ways of propulsion allowed for something like 11 minutes in time savings from Hamilton.

 

[ssiguy2]

So what you are essentially saying is wait for the next election and hope the Liberals get elected with a majority, is that it? I guess if they don't then what's another decade delay in a city where people's expectations are so low when it comes to transit that even finishing Eglinton will be considered a miracle.

You say the trains at evey 15 minute frequency couldn't handle the thousands of new riders under an experiment but is't that the whole point of running such an experiment.......to find out impacts on ridership? If capacity becomes an immediate issue that tells Metrolinx, the TTC, and Queen's Park that Torontonians want to use transit but the current system is ineffectual due to poor frequency and high prices.

Let's say that ridership on BD drops even 10%, that says a huge amount about built up demand for a GO/TTC system considering how poor the frequency levels are and the slow diesel trains. Imagine how the ridership would drop on BD if the lines were running 10 minutes all day with electric DMU, GO trains, or Flexity Tram-trains.

My point is NOT to say that DRL isn't needed but quite the contrary, it was needed decades ago but that doesn't change the immediate situation........Torontonians desperately need better and faster service than they have now and they need it right away not a decade or two from now. Implementing a total GO/TTC transfer test for 6 months requires nothing more than a signature and could start next month if the City, TTC, and Metrolinx actually worked together for a change.

Again I ask, what would be the negatives of such a trial?

 

[Forgotten]

So what you are essentially saying is wait for the next election and hope the Liberals get elected with a majority, is that it? I guess if they don't then what's another decade delay in a city where people's expectations are so low when it comes to transit that even finishing Eglinton will be considered a miracle.

You say the trains at evey 15 minute frequency couldn't handle the thousands of new riders under an experiment but is't that the whole point of running such an experiment.......to find out impacts on ridership? If capacity becomes an immediate issue that tells Metrolinx, the TTC, and Queen's Park that Torontonians want to use transit but the current system is ineffectual due to poor frequency and high prices.

Let's say that ridership on BD drops even 10%, that says a huge amount about built up demand for a GO/TTC system considering how poor the frequency levels are and the slow diesel trains. Imagine how the ridership would drop on BD if the lines were running 10 minutes all day with electric DMU, GO trains, or Flexity Tram-trains.

My point is NOT to say that DRL isn't needed but quite the contrary, it was needed decades ago but that doesn't change the immediate situation........Torontonians desperately need better and faster service than they have now and they need it right away not a decade or two from now. Implementing a total GO/TTC transfer test for 6 months requires nothing more than a signature and could start next month if the City, TTC, and Metrolinx actually worked together for a change.

Again I ask, what would be the negatives of such a trial?

Look at this guy. He wants a trial service that would (in his own esteemed estimations) cost one quarter to one third of the "real thing" for marginal improvements.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So what you are essentially saying is wait for the next election and hope the Liberals get elected with a majority, is that it? I guess if they don't then what's another decade delay in a city where people's expectations are so low when it comes to transit that even finishing Eglinton will be considered a miracle

what else is possible? how on earth would you expect $34 billion in funding to come in? it's not like you find that kind on money on the sidewalk, it takes months, if not years to secure. You are talking about an amount of money that matches the GDP of Kenya here. I struggle to see a single scenario that secures that kind of money within 6 months like the current plan. I am in no way suggesting we wait for a liberal majority, we will know whether we have the money within 9 months at maximum, regardless if that means the liberals pass a budget, or win a minority government at the polls in this fall or in the spring.

You say the trains at evey 15 minute frequency couldn't handle the thousands of new riders under an experiment but is't that the whole point of running such an experiment.......to find out impacts on ridership? If capacity becomes an immediate issue that tells Metrolinx, the TTC, and Queen's Park that Torontonians want to use transit but the current system is ineffectual due to poor frequency and high prices.

Because it requires significant investment of money that you yourself say we don't have. and personally, I like to know what will happen to a transit project before investing $1 billion+ into it. It also doesn't take much thought to see that NOBODY is going to transfer to a train of 15 minute frequency when there is another option that has 2 minute frequency and takes just as long. If the trains can handle the capacity, then they are doing a really shitty job at relief as buses with 5 minute frequencies could do better than 2 car trains with large leather bucket seats.

Let's say that ridership on BD drops even 10%, that says a huge amount about built up demand for a GO/TTC system considering how poor the frequency levels are and the slow diesel trains. Imagine how the ridership would drop on BD if the lines were running 10 minutes all day with electric DMU, GO trains, or Flexity Tram-trains.

It won't though, and as I have said before, it would be releiving a portion of the system that doesn't need relieving. The Bloor line isn't at capacity, and the University line is far from capacity. besides, as I stated in previous posts, most of your proposals aren't even possible, or are so expensive and have such long timelines it would be better to just build the DRL.

My point is NOT to say that DRL isn't needed but quite the contrary, it was needed decades ago but that doesn't change the immediate situation........Torontonians desperately need better and faster service than they have now and they need it right away not a decade or two from now. Implementing a total GO/TTC transfer test for 6 months requires nothing more than a signature and could start next month if the City, TTC, and Metrolinx actually worked together for a change.

correct on the DRL being needed now, but you must remember we live in a place called reality. but implementing a transfer point onto 15 minute frequencies on trains that aren't built for it which very few people will ride (if any) that won't even fix the problem even if they were to work, all the while compromising the new UPX service is not the way to go.

Again I ask, what would be the negatives of such a trial?

1. compromises UPX service
2. doesn't achieve goal of relieving bloor yonge.
3. won't attract very much, if any ridership

now of course this assumes that your plan only includes allowing transfers from dundas west to the UPX service for free, with no other changes to existing plans. anything else, and I could add another 5-10 negatives to that list.

 

[Hipster Duck]

While I think that a HRT subway, and not an underground LRT or some GO-substitution is warranted for the DRL, I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. We should build it as a subway, but there's no reason that a 'budget' subway - whatever that might entail - shouldn't be considered. I also would hesitate to extend the DRL north of Eglinton and Don Mills, and I think a real BRT, as opposed to a B-line (aka: Express, all-door boarding with artics) service would probably suffice north of there for the forseeable future.

Some other things I thought about:

- Would there be cost savings associated with building a stacked tunnel as cut and cover, as opposed to tunnel boring? That was the approach Vancouver tried with the Canada line along Cambie between Broadway and King Edward (which is very urban). This might be feasible on urban streets within the old city of Toronto, where you would only have to carve up half of the road. Having narrower trains allows an even skinnier stacked tunnel or the aforementioned single bore TBM, if needed.
- I think that most stations could be a rudimentary design with only one entrance and exit - sort of like Chester. At least in the residential neighbourhoods of the old city of Toronto, the stations won't have to funnel in a dozen surface bus routes so there's no need to build an expansive terminal. This would cut costs dramatically.
- That said, at least three stations would have to be complex: Don Mills-Eglinton (transfer to Crosstown), Pape (transfer to BD) and "Union Station-Financial District". The latter station would be built almost to Hong Kong MRT standards, with multiple entrances and exits to the PATH system and a gigantic mezzanine. It would have to be deep, and the fare-paid connection to Union wouldn't be cheap. I would expect this station to cost $1B alone.
- If there is to be a connection to the Y-U-S, it should be at Union and only Union. Having two connections at St. Andrew and King (or Queen and Osgoode) is redundant and doesn't tie into the regional network.