MisterF
Senior Member
The fact that it's in a Metrolinx document doesn't make it make any more sense. High capacity mass transit lines following highways through suburbs are almost always a bad idea.
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
picard102
Senior Member
What? By what metric?
fanoftoronto
Active Member
Agreed. Look at Line 1 through Allen Rd. It's not the easiest to get to the stations and the highway makes it so the station boxes are away from any other buildings in the area making it less inviting to get to by foot.
Additionally, there wouldn't be much ridership on the northern 407 stations other than the Richmond Hill and Vaughan city centres. Heck even the 407 transit way subway station only has a daily ridership of 20,000 making it 56th out of 75 stations even with the number of bus transfers there.
It makes more sense for the Ontario Line to go west through Humber Bay shores, before going up to meet the Kipling Hub, and then going up to Pearson to connect with extended Line 5 and extended Line 6. There's guaranteed ridership potential in this route and connects with areas with much higher density and finally connects the airport with the broader rapid transit system of Toronto. It also stays fully inside the borders of Toronto (until the airport), meaning no fiddling with 2 fares etc.
turbanplanner
Active Member
What other cities filled in a partially complete subway with concrete?
What other cities made a 4 stop subway line?
urbancog
Active Member
Interestingly this is not a Metrolinx document, it was released by the provincial MTO: https://www.ontario.ca/page/connecting-ggh-transportation-plan-greater-golden-horseshoe
Metrolinx is about to commission a matching 2051 Regional Transit Plan (transit vs. all transportation modes) through an RfP that closed on 22-Aug:
Hopefully this will provide some more detail on these projects. But we're unlikely to get much on actual alignments until a Transit Project Assessment process happens for each project.
urbancog
Active Member
Perhaps that will be sooner that I thought: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...ief-line-north-speculation.28508/post-1994230
rbt
Senior Member
Same reason intersections and turning corners is useful for drivers.
Covering a 2 dimensional space with a 1 dimensional line does not provide the best trip time or use resources efficiently.
reinventingthewheel
Active Member
By operational metrics, the full context of his message. Transfers aren't good but providing the same frequency of service along the 407 as the frequency needed on Queen St is unnecessary.
Hypothetically, an alternative to address this drop in service demand on one line would be only running say 50% of trains past a certain station while others turn around.
picard102
Senior Member
T3G
Senior Member
So what is the solution? Running every possible combination of transit routes from every terminus to every terminus to avoid requiring people to transfer at any point?
Transfers discourage people from using transit when their wait time is too long, and they have to wait in uncomfortable conditions. Like when I get off at Oakville GO and have to wait half an hour for the next 21 bus. The passenger traffic at Bloor-Yonge and Union stations make it clear that the existence of transfers in and of itself does not push any appreciable quantity of people away from using transit.
To that end, removing the transfer at Kennedy was the single most unconvincing argument put forth for the SSE.
picard102
Senior Member
nfitz
Superstar
They've been planning the alignment for the line along 407 for decades already - they've even left space for such a transitway. Basically all this is joining the two projects together. I'd assume the intent is the Ontario Line extension (project 30) merges with the 407 transitway (project 29) to provide branching subway service, so that northbound Ontario line destinations would include Oshawa, Unionville, Richmond Hill, Pearson, Kipling, and Burlington.
Whether or not future governments will have the stamina to complete this vision remains to be seen. The last time a PC premier (Davis) came up with a similar plan (GO-ALRT), his PC successor (Miller) immediately cancelled it.
reinventingthewheel
Active Member
I don’t want to point any fingers but, for better or for worse, this *could* be a relevant detail in choosing the 407 alignment.
Infrastructure Ontario:
Edit: Maybe the greenbelt scandals made me too excited about political sleuthing
Infrastructure Ontario:
407 ETR:
Counterpoint 1: Metrolinx presented this idea long before Ferrovial was involved with the Ontario Line
Yes, but they’ve also self proclaimed to have been “present in Canada for more than 20 years” since their involvement on 407 ETR
Counterpoint 2: Ferrovial has only been awarded the OL South civil contractYes, but the other portions haven’t been awarded yet
It’s not much to run with but I wouldn’t rule it out. *shrug*Edit: Maybe the greenbelt scandals made me too excited about political sleuthing
MisterF
Senior Member
Some sort of transitway in the 407 right of way makes sense and already kind of exists in the form of GO buses in mixed traffic, which essentially always moves freely. A heavy rail subway is much harder to justify. Every disadvantage of the part of Line 1 in the Allen median is much more of an issue asking the 407, from the built form to the width of the greenbelt it goes through to the lack of destinations. Subways are best in dense urban environments, and the 407 is the opposite of that.
All of the destinations you mentioned are already better served by existing or planned subways and RER.
NotACop123
New Member
A bit of a tangent but there is significant densification around Marlee, Lawrence/Dufferin, Yorkdale that should improve usage on that stretch of Line 1