Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TheTigerMaster]

If they start diving right after Exhibition, could they not get to Dufferin? A King station might have to be west of Dufferin... On the other hand, I feel like you could totally just put in an elevated line on the west side of Dufferin. Just acquire all the properties on that side of the street. I know that would be too much of a community impact, but the whole street would get redeveloped anyway.

Max grade for Ontario Line is 4.5%.

Does anyone know why Metrolinx acquired that property on Dufferin adjacent to the railway? It's marked as a "permanent property requirement", however it doesn't host any station entrances, and nor does it appear to be part of the station infrastructure. Is it possible that this property could be used to allow the train to turn onto Dufferin?

If this is the case, we might be able to build a portal on the west side of Dufferin to bring the line underground. It does feel like it would be a tight fit through, but this is a situation where the greater maneuverability of the OL rolling stock would pay dividends.

 

[syn]

If I recall the plan (in the province's 30 year outline) is to extend the Ontario Line west to Pearson and north to Richmond Hill Centre.

No idea what the west alignment would be.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If I recall the plan (in the province's 30 year outline) is to extend the Ontario Line west to Pearson and north to Richmond Hill Centre.

No idea what the west alignment would be.

Yea... that plan was a loop to connect the Ontario Line with Pearson and Richmond Hill Centre. That plan sounds utterly nonsensical to me, and like any 30-year plan, it probably safe to ignore. I choose to believe (for my sanity) that some political staffer put this together, and that this isn't the actual thinking within Metrolinx.

Province announces 30-year transit vision, including plan to connect Ontario Line to Pearson​

 

[ARG1]

Fundamentally, any new rapid transit line must consider any possible extensions in its original plan. The original Ontario Line plan should've included future potential routing, the potential demand for those routes, and a very rough timeline of when those routes would be built and how much it would cost. That should have then informed the technical requirements of the original segment of the Ontario Line, such that those extensions can be easily built when the time comes. I've seen absolutely no evidence of this foresight from Metrolinx.

The Ontario Line feels like a project that's designed for Toronto of 2031, and only for Toronto of 2031. And that's a shame. I wish Metrolinx had looked a bit into the future when designing this thing.

They have literally stated that they are designing this thing for 60 years out - and that's factoring future extension.

 

[syn]

Yea... that plan was a loop to connect the Ontario Line with Pearson and Richmond Hill Centre. That plan sounds utterly nonsensical to me, and like any 30-year plan, it probably safe to ignore. I choose to believe (for my sanity) that some political staffer put this together, and that this isn't the actual thinking within Metrolinx.

Province announces 30-year transit vision, including plan to connect Ontario Line to Pearson​

Hard to disagree with that assessment.

A general extension north does seem within the realm of possibility.

 

[smallspy]

Does anyone know why Metrolinx acquired that property on Dufferin adjacent to the railway? It's marked as a "permanent property requirement", however it doesn't host any station entrances, and nor does it appear to be part of the station infrastructure. Is it possible that this property could be used to allow the train to turn onto Dufferin?

If this is the case, we might be able to build a portal on the west side of Dufferin to bring the line underground. It does feel like it would be a tight fit through, but this is a situation where the greater maneuverability of the OL rolling stock would pay dividends.

For the interim, that's supposed to be used for staging and site access.

I don't know if they plan to keep it after construction is finished. It's certainly not unprecedented for property to be taken under a "permanent property requirement" and then sold in part or in full once the project is finished. Seems like a bit of a cheat to allow them to sell at a gain.

Dan

 

[Ward8]

However this also concerned me because the design of Exhibition Station doesn't allow any way for the line to curve north to get under Dufferin Street. So why are they studying the environmental impact of a subway under King and Dufferin, if they clearly haven't designed the line to reach that location?

If they start diving right after Exhibition, could they not get to Dufferin?

I'm taking measurements on google maps, so this amounts to pure speculation, but it looks like there is theoretically enough room to portal under Dufferin if they dive immediately. The portal at Gerrard is in the 200 meter range (again zero science to the measurements I'm taking) and the length from the end of the Exhibition platform to Dufferin is over 300 meters. It would also depend on the tunnel depth and any other unknown variables.

I agree, Dufferin makes all the sense in the world for an extension.

 

[fanoftoronto]

They have literally stated that they are designing this thing for 60 years out - and that's factoring future extension.

Do we have a ridership graph like this with the extensions to Steeles or Markham added?

I'd love to see that.

 

[afransen]

Why do we assume we'd see riders from Markham adding to peak demands south of Line 2? If they are headed downtown, can't they take GO?

 

[generalcanada]

I'm taking measurements on google maps, so this amounts to pure speculation, but it looks like there is theoretically enough room to portal under Dufferin if they dive immediately. The portal at Gerrard is in the 200 meter range (again zero science to the measurements I'm taking) and the length from the end of the Exhibition platform to Dufferin is over 300 meters. It would also depend on the tunnel depth and any other unknown variables.

I agree, Dufferin makes all the sense in the world for an extension.

so the ontario is actually being built with tail tracks on the other side of the station, i think it goes at least fraser avenue with no slope.
so that complicates things, maybe they rebuild the tail tracks with the replacement but it makes it harder

 

[M II A II R II K]

And what route to the airport, following the UPX line perhaps.

 

[afransen]

Pretty sure the airport was on the eastern leg of the OL, which would be extended up to Richmond Hill Centre and along the 407/427 to Pearson. It might continue on down the 427 to connect with Kipling. So it is actually a very roundabout eastern extension. To me it made very little sense.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm taking measurements on google maps, so this amounts to pure speculation, but it looks like there is theoretically enough room to portal under Dufferin if they dive immediately. The portal at Gerrard is in the 200 meter range (again zero science to the measurements I'm taking) and the length from the end of the Exhibition platform to Dufferin is over 300 meters. It would also depend on the tunnel depth and any other unknown variables.

I agree, Dufferin makes all the sense in the world for an extension.

Yeah, it looks like there's enough room to accommodate the grade change. However the tight curve necessary to from a southern to an east-west to a north-south alignment concerns me.

It's my understanding that trains typically don't perform well when they have to simultaneously change grades and make tight curves.

But you know what... the Dufferin tunnel doesn't have to be directly under Dufferin Street at all. If the line immediately dives underground after Exhibition, the line could gradually curve to the north and run in a tunnel maybe 50 to 100 metres west of Dufferin. That would mean that King/Dufferin Station would be just slightly west of Dufferin, but that's largely inconsequential. I'd imagine that the line would then gradually shift east, such that Queen/Dufferin Station would be right under Queen.

Excuse the very crudely drawn map, but it would look something like this (station boxes in black, and the portal in blue):

Hopefully the Ontario Line's "shorter" train cars would allow is to make such a tight turn.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Do we have a ridership graph like this with the extensions to Steeles or Markham added?

I'd love to see that.

Why do we assume we'd see riders from Markham adding to peak demands south of Line 2? If they are headed downtown, can't they take GO?

Sure they could take GO, but for a lot of Downtown-bound commuters the Ontario Line would serve them better.

1. The Ontario Line will have more stations than RER, which means it would be more accessible for thousands of Markham residents.
2. Our idiotic fare structure might incentivize them to take the Ontario Line
3. The Ontario Line would almost certainly operate trains on tighter headways than RER is capable of. Perhaps 5 minute headways on Ontario Line vs 15 minute headways on RER (I'm assuming not all OL trains would head to Markham). That would shave 10 mins off people's trips. (Apparently Stoufville will be operating at 5 mins now)
4. The Ontario Line has several stations in the core of the city, and is thus more likely to deliver passengers "directly" to their destinations across Downtown. Contrast this with RER, which would only be able to serve destinations in the immediate vicinity of Union Station or East Harbour. This factor alone will open up a lot of new trip opportunities for people in Markham, while also dramatically cutting last-mile trip times vs RER.

So personally I believe the Ontario Line to Markham would prove to be a tremendously well used commuter service to Downtown. We'd likely a couple thousand Downtown-bound Markham residents at peak. This also has the knock-on benefit of reducing passenger congestion at Union (something that has been concerning MX for a while).

And thinking beyond just Downtown-bound customers, the Ontario Line also has the benefit of giving Markham residents access to a multitude of non-downwn destinations as well via the Sheppard Line, Eglinton Line or Line 2. It would open up a lot of network connectivity for these people.

 

[Tristen]

Perhaps 5 minute headways on Ontario Line vs 15 minute headways on RER (I'm assuming not all OL trains would head to Markham). That would shave 10 mins off people's trips.

The Stouffville GO will have 11 trains going south in AM peak hour according to the business case, that's 5 mins 28 sec headways on average.

So the combination of more frequent OL trains and it's better last mile connections could very well save commuters anywhere from 10 to 30 mins

Not for me, but more regional connectivity is always better.

Our idiotic fare structure might incentivize them to take the Ontario Line

Totally Agree