Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[mdrejhon]

GO RER in a tunnel will be the Relief Line and Union Station Relief Line

Theoretically. One of the Relief Line route proposals takes over the Richmond Hill Line beginning at the southernmost Richmond Hill Line station.

It would probably be the cheapest clean-sheet subway-frequency TTC+RER hybrid to achieve, if Ford wanted to turn TTC subway into a regional system. Dense spaced stations downtown and wide spaced commuter stations on Richmond Hill line. That said, if this happens, it will interchange on Queen Street, and not at Union Station.

That said, it also has other ramifications that many may not like (e.g. Nortlander connection to Union, though a miniature "Union Station North" located at Langstaff, would be the presumed interchange for any northern trains (Northlander + Yonge TTC + DRL (replaces old Richmond Hill Line) + 407 Transitway).

(Langstaff probably would be better for an interchange station given its better density & 407 Transitway) -- but the concept is the same. Either way, not perfect infrastructure.

But given Ford's planning upload of TTC subways into Metrolinx, and forcing TTC into regional transit, anything's possible to extend subway infrastructure far into the suburbs as cheaply as possible -- and that means milking GO into subway frequencies -- which is indeed possible -- as explained in my previous post.

I made that diagram before Ford was elected.

Now cheap high-frequency Frankenstein hybrids like this seems more likely to happen (for better or for worse).

See, the lines of RER and Subway is definitely going to major blur in the coming few decades (even if not via this way)

 

[Leo_Chan]

Theoretically. One of the Relief Line route proposals takes over the Richmond Hill Line beginning at the southernmost Richmond Hill Line station.

It would probably be the cheapest clean-sheet subway-frequency TTC+RER hybrid to achieve, if Ford wanted to turn TTC subway into a regional system. Dense spaced stations downtown and wide spaced commuter stations on Richmond Hill line. That said, if this happens, it will interchange on Queen Street, and not at Union Station.

That said, it also has other ramifications that many may not like (e.g. Nortlander connection to Union, though a miniature "Union Station North" located at Langstaff, would be the presumed interchange for any northern trains (Northlander + Yonge TTC + DRL (replaces old Richmond Hill Line) + 407 Transitway).

(Langstaff probably would be better for an interchange station given its better density & 407 Transitway) -- but the concept is the same. Either way, not perfect infrastructure.

But given Ford's planning upload of TTC subways into Metrolinx, and forcing TTC into regional transit, anything's possible to extend subway infrastructure far into the suburbs as cheaply as possible -- and that means milking GO into subway frequencies -- which is indeed possible -- as explained in my previous post.

I made that diagram before Ford was elected.

Now cheap high-frequency Frankenstein hybrids like this seems more likely to happen (for better or for worse).

See, the lines of RER and Subway is definitely going to major blur in the coming few decades (even if not via this way)

You showed me this before (in fact I helped with some ideas). My reply wasn’t trying to imply anything radical. I was just trying to say that GO RER in an underground will primary act as relief for the USRC and thus a Union Station Relief Line. It also can be a Relief Line for the Relief Line, as it will eventually be over capacity and require relief.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

The thing that really attracts me to something like the above is how amenable it is to options like through routing onto the Weston corridor in the west and out to NE Scarborough and North Pickering if we can ever get access to the CP ROW. Assuming two eastern branches and a decent interchange with Eglinton we can add a lot of the regional benefits of a Sheppard subway to the project.

 

[mdrejhon]

Right,

It won't be called "RER" but a subway-like train going on GO tracks, is essentially defacto the concept of GO turning into rapid transit (whatever politicians throw, RER, SmartTrack, whatever) It quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's just a branding. And now TTC subways part of Metrolinx!? (That's where they are going when Ford takes the subways away from Toronto). Who'd thought.

So hybridization will be inevitable, especially with momentum to free transfers, electrification, and high frequencies.

In one of the PDF files deciding what type of RER EMUs to use, one of the smaller RER trains pictured in the Metrolinx PDF was the same single-deck almost the same as a TTC subway train, so tunnelbore diameter may not be too different from TTC for any new hybrids (underground Union tunnels), but GO network is no longer going to be Union centric in 25 years from now, beginning with the Bathurst station, and progressively many subway-frequency "whatever-is-on-the-GO-network" trains will terminate elsewhere, go under different streets like Queen, or many other interchange stations. Like a proper subway network. Maybe it'll be taking 25 years, even 50 years, but it's already done elsewhere in the world. The first domino of least one or two GO routes will cease to run BiLevels, replaced with metro-like EMUs (whatever branding it is)

This hybridization (between subway and RER) is likely to happen to at least one GO line. But which? Lakeshore? Kitchener (to Brampton)? Richmond Hill DRL hybrid? There's many possibilities. Quite endless.

The point is, people disbelieve the RER concept (or successor brand) can progress to true subway frequencies. (e.g. 3-to-5 minute instead of "15 minute"). Sure, that may not be 2025 goal on all lines but it's part of the progression, long-term. It will require multiple interchange stations like Queen, Bathurst, North Toronto, etc as Union can only handle roughly a tripling. Subway frequencies on GO is indeed technologically possible and it is actually a long-term internal Metrolinx dream.

It's way more cost effective (and already achieved in Europe and Japan) than digging tunnels to Pickering!

But the progress is a horrendously complicated & long incremental progress to get there, but Toronto's density is pretty much demanding continued momentum in turning at least portions of a commuter system into rapid transit.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Huh? You do realize that some Paris RER lines run more frequently than Toronto subways? Or that Crossrail is going to be running 2.5 min headways to start through the core, with less than 2 mins in the design capability of the system?

Or Thameslink back almost a decade ago:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/thameslink-programme-starts-to-take-off.html

Now updated:

https://www.siemens.com/press/pool/...ty/2015-06-uitp/presentation-thameslink-e.pdf

As do many JR east lines, I should have clarified that I was referring to Toronto only. It will be a few decades before we even consider RER lines with frequencies better than every 5 minutes. Currently the demand isn't there, and since the TTC subways are getting ATC, frequencies are going to be (hopefully) down to less than every 2 min/train per direction. Only time will tell what form of heavy rail ends up winning in the end.

 

[Neutrino]

How many riders can a single level EMU seat? Less than bilevels? If so, that will need to be factored into schedule frequency to avoid reducing capacity.

 

[steveintoronto]

As much as I want an RER tunnel it would take ministerial intervention at this point.

Actually not. Something much more powerful: The Market. And Private Investment. As much as REM in Montreal has some serious political issues, the vehicles being used are classic *metro* trains.

I address this to other posters who just can't seem to get the memo: *Toronto has no money!!!* Build the most lovely subway you ever dreamed possible! Now finance it. Good luck on that, because "subways, subways, subways" besides, Dougie don't got no bone. The cupboard is bare. When do you get the hint they keep dangling to you day after day?

It will be financed privately, and probably, if not inevitably, even more steeply than present DBFOM. Exhibit A: REM.

There's reams on-line on this, even on REM alone. Here's a good start:

Canada Infrastructure Bank
Aug 22, 2018, 10:16 ET

MONTRÉAL, Aug. 22, 2018 /CNW Telbec/ - Canada Infrastructure Bank and CDPQ Infra, a wholly owned subsidiary of Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, have reached a business agreement on the investment by Canada Infrastructure Bank in the Réseau express métropolitain project (REM) in Montréal, a 67-km, light rail, high-frequency network with 26 stations.

The $1.28-billion investment completes the project's $6.3-billion financing. The agreement is subject to the execution of the final documentation.[...]

CNW | REM project financing completed - Canada Infrastructure Bank
See also:
CDPQ Infra | An innovative model for infrastucture projets

It won't be called "RER" but a subway-like train going on GO tracks, is essentially defacto the concept of GO turning into rapid transit (whatever politicians throw, RER, SmartTrack, whatever) It quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's just a branding. And now TTC subways part of Metrolinx!? (That's where they are going when Ford takes the subways away from Toronto). Who'd thought.

Most cities are calling them RER or Metros. It's only Toronto having hemorrhoids over change and modern methods. Melbourne is moving at light speed almost building their latest and driverless one:

ABOUT THE PROJECT
THE METRO TUNNEL WILL FREE UP SPACE IN THE CITY LOOP TO RUN MORE TRAINS TO AND FROM THE SUBURBS, BY TAKING OUR BUSIEST TRAIN LINES THROUGH A NEW TUNNEL UNDER THE CITY.

That means more trains, more often across Victoria, with a less crowded and more reliable train network. [...]

https://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/about-the-project

PUBLIC TRANSPORT
Is Melbourne Metro being built way too fast?
The Sunday Age reckons the Andrews Government has cynically chosen to use a truck-intensive tunnelling method so it can get the Melbourne Metro rail project finished faster
[...]
According to the paper, the problem is the section of the tunnel under Swanston St between the two new stations, CBD North and CBD South, will use a “mined cavern” design that requires excavated soil to be removed by trucks, whereas the sort of Tunnel Boring Machine (TBM) used for the rest of the tunnel removes the soil behind it as it advances.

TBMs are impressive but they’re slower than a snail: using the “mined cavern” design means the CBD section can be built without waiting for a TBM to arrive at the CBD from the Flemington and South Yarra ends of the tunnel.

The idea that a government might cynically manipulate key project parameters, like cost and timing, to improve its political welfare is eminently believable; indeed, its par for the course.

But it’s odd to see a government being taken to task for wanting to get a project finished sooner rather than later. While it doubtless suits the Government politically, building Metro quickly is also good for travellers. The rail system in Melbourne is groaning at peak hour from demand, as The Age often tell its readers. Metro will increase passenger capacity and, importantly, improve system-wide reliability.
[...]

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/theurbanist/2017/07/11/melbourne-metro-built-fast/
Regardez la différence! Meantime Toronto draws pictures on paper and claims it to be proof that it's to be built as an old-fashioned subway. Absolutely no money budgeted to build it, but hey...

In one of the PDF files deciding what type of RER EMUs to use, one of the smaller RER trains pictured in the Metrolinx PDF was the same single-deck almost the same as a TTC subway train, so tunnelbore diameter may not be too different from TTC for any new hybrids (underground Union tunnels), but GO network is no longer going to be Union centric in 25 years from now, beginning with the Bathurst station, and progressively many subway-frequency "whatever-is-on-the-GO-network" trains will terminate elsewhere, go under different streets like Queen, or many other interchange stations. Like a proper subway network.

Absolutely. And totally mainline compatible, temporal separation pertaining of course for freight on the mainline.

How many riders can a single level EMU seat? Less than bilevels? If so, that will need to be factored into schedule frequency to avoid reducing capacity.

Well exactly the same as a conventional subway car of the same dimensions. Except it will go a hell of a lot faster, smoother, accelerate and brake faster, and Bob's your conductor.

Operator(s)

Crossrail
Depot(s) Old Oak Common[2]
Line(s) served Elizabeth line
Specifications
Train length 205 m (673 ft)[2]
Width 2780mm[citation needed]
Doors Plug, 6 sets of doors per carriage
Maximum speed 145 km/h (90 mph)[5]
Weight 264.21 tonnes[5]
Acceleration up to 1 m/s²[5]
Electric system(s) 25 kV 50 Hz AC overhead lines[5]
Current collection method Pantograph
Safety system(s) CBTC, ETCS, AWS, TPWS
Coupling system Dellner
Track gauge 1,435 mm (4 ft 81⁄2 in) standard gauge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345 That's the Crossrail variant.

Here's the general platform:

[...]
Description
The train has been designed to be lighter and more efficient, with increased reliability.[3] It will have lightweight all-welded bodies, wide gangways and doors to shorten boarding times in stations, and ERTMS.[2] The design incorporates FlexxEco bogies which have been used in service on Voyagers and newer Turbostars.[4] The gangway is designed to allow maximum use of the interior space and ease of movement throughout the train.[5][6]

Orders[edit]
As of December 2017, 2,618 vehicles have been ordered for six operators:
[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aventra

But Toronto wants to live in the past...Maybe Ford has a point, just not the way he intends it...

 

[Streety McCarface]

I address this to other posters who just can't seem to get the memo: *Toronto has no money!!!* Build the most lovely subway you ever dreamed possible! Now finance it. Good luck on that, because "subways, subways, subways" besides, Dougie don't got no bone. The cupboard is bare. When do you get the hint they keep dangling to you day after day?

Toronto has plenty of money, we just don't use it because a bunch of people just don't want to be taxed because this city is far too expensive to live in as is. Personally, I don't mind paying another 100-300$ annually for subway construction, but to each their own.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Agreed. The province may have fiscal problems, the city does not. The city has an arbitrary debt cap, good credit rating and a political unwillingness to tax itself.

As to private investment, yes, they would, I'm sure, rather build RER. I question their willingness to jump onboard at all with the GO DBFOM happening simultaneously and the willingness of the city to let them alter plans at a level that affects design already done or the EA.

Metrolinx taking over gives us a shot, but I really suspect that a private partner is going to find themselves locked in to building a conventional subway by whatever contractual structure they end up with.

 

[steveintoronto]

Good discussion, albeit we differ on points, but this 'City of Toronto has no money problems' is fantasy.

As of the end of 2012, the total debt stood at CDN$3.7 billion.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_government_debt

Perhaps some are mistaking "deficit" and "debt" to mean the same thing? They're not.

City of Toronto deeper in debt under Mayor Rob Ford
By PAUL MOLONEYStaff Reporter
Wed., July 10, 2013

• Mayor Rob Ford.
  
  The city’s net long-term debt grew by about $800 million in Ford’s first two years of office, 2011 and 2012.
  

As of the end of 2012, it stood at $3.7 billion, compared with $2.9 billion at the end of 2010, former mayor David Miller’s last year in office.
Over the past two years, the city borrowed $1.5 billion to pay for capital costs — including transit equipment ordered by Ford’s predecessor — and repaid $700 million, thus increasing the debt burden by $800 million.

Ford has championed cutting the cost of government, scrapping the $60 vehicle tax shortly after taking office, and holding down increases in property taxes which are traditionally put toward capital costs, along with borrowed funds.

The mayor’s office didn’t respond to the Star’s request for comment.
[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...onto_deeper_in_debt_under_mayor_rob_ford.html

Whether you agree with debt financing or not, to pretend that somehow Toronto is all hunkydory while the province is screwed defies belief.

https://fcm.ca/Documents/reports/Da...se_of_Canadas_municipal_infrastructure_EN.pdf

 

[TransitBart]

If you want to relieve a subway line, you had better be using the same trains or ones with more capacity, otherwise it won't relieve squat.

Wait for the crush at Cedarvale and Eglinton.

 

[TransitBart]

They are rolling out the catenary, I have seen quite a few of them on the Spadina route, maybe Queens Quay too

Pantograph is SOP on 509, 510, 512, 511 this quarter if streetcars ever return here, and then 505 and 506 to start 2019 according to a schedule on Steve Munro’s blog

 

[steveintoronto]

Wait for the crush at Allendale and Eglinton.

Where's 'Allendale'?

 

[TransitBart]

Where's 'Allendale'?

Oops. Cedarvale. Damn. Why can’t we just have Eg West?

 

[steveintoronto]

Oops. Cedarvale. Damn. Why can’t we just have Eg West?

lol...I didn't even realize they were going to rename it! I thought you might have meant that. What a mess right now crossing the street there to the park where they insist on putting up a fence that keeps getting holes torn into it. I use the hole to walk Big Black Lab from Eg West down the ravine, one of the better walks within the City. That stretch of subway build (University Line) still impresses me. It was built frugally, and yet looks more interesting in many ways than the extension and other grandiose monstrosities. The lower Uni ones were drab, but functional. Dupont remains a gem, albeit does need some skin care.

But yes, agreed that is going to host a "crush". If they'd spent any more money on it, they could rename it Chippendale. I suspect that Crosstown, at least in sections, will host more passengers than predicted almost immediately.

Crosstown discussed in glowing terms here:
https://tvo.org/video/programs/the-agenda-with-steve-paikin/an-end-of-the-line-at-metrolinx