wopchop
Building Toronto
That too. That area is one of the wealthiest in the city. I'm sure that there would be a lot of well organized and well connected opposition.
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
- Thread starter JasonParis
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Even York Mills is probably superior at Don Mills. There's a huge amount of under-utilized land on the southwest corner that could be developed.
44 North
Senior Member
No one's doubting that Don Mills isn't superior to Leslie. It's without question. And I'm not talking about Leslie proper being the corridor, but rather a section of the Leaside Spur (now Leaside Trail) - which runs within a few hundred metres of Leslie. https://www.google.ca/maps/place/CN...1s0x0000000000000000:0x7bf70647f9acb5c3?hl=en
Yes, Don Mills is preferable. But Metrolinx's area of study for a RT relief corridor - both as subway and LRT - does in fact span over an area that includes this former rail line. And the western edge of the study area does seem to roughly follow its shape. Not 100% certain, but I'm assuming this is because a section of this former rail line is being considered/analyzed as a route to run trains. If they were only looking at Don Mills, their area of study would only follow Don Mills (and we could skip an entire year in the study process.)
I think there's enough info that's been released from Metrolinx and the TTC for the public to realize that some of the preconceived notions about the DRL do not hold true. Pape is not guaranteed as a B/D intercept station, and Don Mills is not guaranteed as the northerly corridor.
BurlOak
Senior Member
But the purpose of the study is not to learn anything, it is to delay spending the real money, give some money to their consultant friends, and delay a decision that may offend someone. Anyone who follows transit can pick the best route already and they can study everything they want without public input. The public discussions are just a waste of time and money where they try to get the people bored of the discussion and willing to accept any proposal. Just like the Eglinton on-street LRT which was highly opposed, but eventually snuck back in when everyone was distracted by Ford.
wopchop
Building Toronto
Right, but there is more of the same land at the Rail Corridor & York Mills - on all corners. Not just the southwest corner.
44 North
Senior Member
haha, you might be right. This project has been delayed for so long, I'll just about accept anything. Put a donkey cart in the Coxwell trunk sewer, have Deco print a label that says "DRL". I'll probably take it.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
You have a funny definition of "highly opposed". The alternative was also "highly opposed" by Torontonians. Maybe we should just stop building things, because Torontonians have a tendency to highly oppose any and all options for everything in this city.
You guys shouldn't be so cynical. Name a time in the past that we've as much transit expansion as we are seeing today? And there much more coming.
rbt
Senior Member
EA's are approved as all or nothing. Any minor issues at Don Mills & Sheppard would delay the entire project if it was done as a single project.
So phases just to derisk the timeline of the most important piece.
With suitable funding construction could be continuous but it really isn't necessary or wanted to delay the south chunk due to issues in the north chunk.
PL1
Active Member
Just posted on the Toronto Star website, by Tess Kalinowski:
Yonge subway relief will last only about 15 years: Metrolinx
GO electrification and/or SmartTrack would ease things for a few years. But then the subway runs out of room again, says Metrolinx.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...-will-last-only-about-15-years-metrolinx.html
Yonge subway relief will last only about 15 years: Metrolinx
GO electrification and/or SmartTrack would ease things for a few years. But then the subway runs out of room again, says Metrolinx.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...-will-last-only-about-15-years-metrolinx.html
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Reminds me of a point I meant to make yesterday:
A few UTers in this thread have been saying that YRNS is an attempt to push back the RL even further. How is this possibly the case? Metrolinx says that currently implemented relief plans will only last 15 years. Hopefully most of us realize that isn't a very long time. We need to get moving today if we want to have relief before we run out of time. This report doesn't appear to be an attempt to push back the RL. In fact, it should be lighting a fire under ourselves.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
44 North
Senior Member
The way I see it is that Metrolinx is the Prov. And the Prov's priorities are winning votes, and fulfilling previous promises like those laid out in MO2020 (and later the Big Move). But, like is the case with Yonge North, their promise is much delayed. There's a lot of money and development at stake with that extension, and probably a lot of generous donors who have been stiffed. And frankly, I wouldn't rule out an organized criminal element as well. Think of True Detective Season II, but instead of California, it's the GTA. The Prov wants to get YN started ASAP; but because of their blunder in ignoring (what should've been the blatantly obvious) capacity issues for Line 1 when they presented MO2020 and the Big Move, the only way to get YN started now is with this quickest Relief Line there is.
Although I think the Prov's newfound LRT idea does have legs, I can't say the same about any proposed on-street portion of this line through downtown. I think they're trying to cut corners and give us a quick-fix ad hoc relief line. Using the Leaside Spur and Don Branch...I'm okay with. But turning what could be a completely grade-separate route into a streetcar that runs along Front Street? I don't think so.
Yonge reached practical and designed capacity 30yrs ago (literally). Any remedy to fix this issue (that doesn't involve a new, fully grade-separate line) isn't a remedy or fix: it's a band-aid solution. ATC, longer trains, costly B-Y modifications...it makes little difference. Unless the Prov 100% commits to a DRL SHORT or LONG, or some kind of grade-separate route (as they've so easily done with other projects), I don't have faith in them.
So I wouldn't say they're trying to "push back" the Relief Line. But rather trying to give us the bare minimum in "relief". History has a tendency of repeating itself. But whereas before it was Metro that ignored the need for Relief Line (so as to build politically expedient projects), this time it's the Prov.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
They're not cutting corners; they're evaluating all potential options. Something like 40 options (including busses) were considered before they were whittled down to the three we have today. Obviously the LRT won't be chosen, as it performs poorly compared to the DRL. If there was a conspiracy to deliver a "quick-fix ad hoc relief line", the DRL probably wouldn't perform as incredibly well as it did in the study.
It's critical to evaluate all potential options. We really won't know how well an option will perform until proper modelling is done. Even DRL Long is one of those crazy pie-in-the-sky ideas that could've been dismissed if it were not for these evaluations. It wasn't that long ago where you'd be scoffed at for suggesting a Don Mills subway line.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Regarding the development potential of York Mills Station on Don Mills:
Edit: It should be noted that development at York Mills and Don Mills is impossible due to the floodplain. It's what prompted me to propose moving York Mills station slightly west.
Immediately west of Don Mills there is a large, low density commercial and industrial area. This is an area that might be ideal for a large scale redevelopment, similar to the proposal Unilever lands. This area is roughly centred at York Mills @ Lesmill Road, which is where I'd put York Mills Station for the Don Mills line. I envision an urban area, with good mixture of commercial, residential, mid and high rise.
Any redevelopment of the area would likely include extensive reconfiguration of the local road network, since the area clearly was not designed with high density commercial and residential in mind.
The connectivity of this neighbourhood would potentially make it one of Toronto's most attractive. Just about all of the neighbourhood would be walking distance (800 meters) from York Mills subway station, and from there it would be less than 5 minutes to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Fairview Mall and less than 15 minutes to downtown. There would be opportunities for two additional stations in the north and south ends of the neighbourhood (denoted by grey pins on the map). Finally, the DVP and 401 are both only minutes away.
The neighbourhood would be roughly 1.20 km2, 295 acres. In contrast, the Unilever lands proposed for redevelopment is 0.25km2, 60 acres in size and CityPlace is 0.4km2, 96 acres. This is a really large area we'd be working with.
I know City Planing is serious about maintaining industrial employment lands, so I'd expect some of this land would need to be set aside for that purpose.
The detour of the Don Mills line to Lesmill Road likely wouldn't add too much cost. It would add roughly 100 to 200 meters onto the the length of the line.
A new neighbourhood in this area would ideal for a Tax Increment Financing scheme, similar to Unilever. Hopefully it would be able to generate a few hundred million to contribute to the costs of building DRL LONG.
Thoughts?
Edit: It should be noted that development at York Mills and Don Mills is impossible due to the floodplain. It's what prompted me to propose moving York Mills station slightly west.
Immediately west of Don Mills there is a large, low density commercial and industrial area. This is an area that might be ideal for a large scale redevelopment, similar to the proposal Unilever lands. This area is roughly centred at York Mills @ Lesmill Road, which is where I'd put York Mills Station for the Don Mills line. I envision an urban area, with good mixture of commercial, residential, mid and high rise.
Any redevelopment of the area would likely include extensive reconfiguration of the local road network, since the area clearly was not designed with high density commercial and residential in mind.
The connectivity of this neighbourhood would potentially make it one of Toronto's most attractive. Just about all of the neighbourhood would be walking distance (800 meters) from York Mills subway station, and from there it would be less than 5 minutes to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Fairview Mall and less than 15 minutes to downtown. There would be opportunities for two additional stations in the north and south ends of the neighbourhood (denoted by grey pins on the map). Finally, the DVP and 401 are both only minutes away.
The neighbourhood would be roughly 1.20 km2, 295 acres. In contrast, the Unilever lands proposed for redevelopment is 0.25km2, 60 acres in size and CityPlace is 0.4km2, 96 acres. This is a really large area we'd be working with.
I know City Planing is serious about maintaining industrial employment lands, so I'd expect some of this land would need to be set aside for that purpose.
The detour of the Don Mills line to Lesmill Road likely wouldn't add too much cost. It would add roughly 100 to 200 meters onto the the length of the line.
A new neighbourhood in this area would ideal for a Tax Increment Financing scheme, similar to Unilever. Hopefully it would be able to generate a few hundred million to contribute to the costs of building DRL LONG.
Thoughts?
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