Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

When they did the study for GO RER Plus and the effects on how it would reduce capacity at Y&B, what did they assume the fare would be for the GO RER Plus. If the fare is still a GO based fare structure then I can see how it would have little effect but if it's a standard TTC fare then the reduction of passengers going to Y&B could be substantial. Fares are a big determination of ridership and that is a hell of an omission.
 
When they did the study for GO RER Plus and the effects on how it would reduce capacity at Y&B, what did they assume the fare would be for the GO RER Plus. If the fare is still a GO based fare structure then I can see how it would have little effect but if it's a standard TTC fare then the reduction of passengers going to Y&B could be substantial. Fares are a big determination of ridership and that is a hell of an omission.

Fair enough.

I am anxious to see SmartTrack ridership projections. I hope they will include the effect of fare structure in SmartTrack studies.
 
No one has said much about the rather new (or till recently shadowy) idea of an LRT from the northeast to downtown. It seems as though it would start on Don Mills but going south could migrate to the abandoned rail corridor, Leslie, the main railway corridor, the DVP, Bayview, and any major street in the east of the downtown. That's an interesting can of worms.
 
Option 2B - Relief Line LONG (Sheppard/Don Mills to Downtown)

Underground Relief Line subway running from Danforth Avenue to Downtown (likely King Street). In the pricing assessment, the study assumes this line is 100% underground. It is noted that elevating or building the line at grade can significantly lower costs. Further study is needed to determine exact alignment and grade
  • Up to 14 stations
  • 16.6 km
  • 22.2 minute travel time from Don Mills/Sheppard to King
Conclusions:
  • Ridership of 19,200 pphpd
  • Ridership on Yonge will be reduced to 20,700 pphpd (a reduction of 11,600 pphpd; 36%)
  • Ridership on Bloor-Danforth will be reduced to 21,400 pphpd (a reduction of 6,500 pphpd; 21.4%)
  • Attracts significant demand from Yonge and Bloor Danforth
  • Bloor/Yonge station improvements may not be needed
  • Progressed to full evaluation
  • $7.8 Billion
Thanks for the summary, that's really helpful. The Don Mills option looks like it'll perform even better than I expected. Ridership on Yonge, Bloor, and Don Mills/DRL would be an almost 3 way split. From a network perspective that's a slam dunk.

I can see why the western extension doesn't perform as well as the other options. The GO lines have far better potential connections to TTC routes and neighbourhoods in the west end than in the east, so RER would take much of the ridership that would otherwise go on a subway line. Building extra subways there would be redundant. The one part of the west end where a subway would really help, IMO, is along King West or Queen West, where RER won't have much of a presence.

I briefly looked at the report and curiously the term Smart Track wasn't used once that I could see.

They made lots references to GO RER and even enhancing it but not ST. Until they come to terms with the real issue that differentiates GO from ST, meaning the same fares as TTC, then this study is useless.

I also have to say that the policy wonks at Metrolinx are pretty damn insulting to Torontonians and Tory with this plan. Tory was not voted in on, nor doesn't have a mandate, to put money into a DRL. Besides Ford, there was only one real issue in the last campaign.............transit. Tory was very explicit with his ST program and got support from across all regions of the City so he has the mandate to spend funds on that NOT a DRL. He was also very specific that ST would be a TTC fare and GO RER has no such guarantees except vague promises about fare integration which can mean anything from complete TTC fares or a 10 cent reduction.

This study should be filed away and collect dust like all the other DRL studies. Tory has no mandate from the people to put precious transit funds into a DRL but he does have a mandate to put money into ST.

Considering how everyone bitches about politicians never keeping their promises, Tory is right to move forward with ST instead of funds for a DRL He promised ST not a DRL and for those who continually complain about lying politicians, they should support Tory to actually do what he promised.

When they did the study for GO RER Plus and the effects on how it would reduce capacity at Y&B, what did they assume the fare would be for the GO RER Plus. If the fare is still a GO based fare structure then I can see how it would have little effect but if it's a standard TTC fare then the reduction of passengers going to Y&B could be substantial. Fares are a big determination of ridership and that is a hell of an omission.
It's no secret that Metrolinx is actively working towards fare integration across the GTHA. I think it's safe to assume that studies for various rapid transit projects across the region take that into account. GO and the TTC, along with the suburban systems, will all be integrated into a single fare structure that takes modes and distances into account. If it will eventually work the same way here as it does in other cities, Smarttrack won't be a flat TTC fare from one end to the other, and neither will the subway lines. The TTC will likely get more expensive to travel long distances and GO will likely be cheaper.

Just because John Tory says that Smarttrack will be a flat fare that doesn't mean it's going to happen. He's just one politician and he's working with a regional plan led by the province that's been years in the making. The TTC doesn't work in isolation anymore; the city's transit plans have to fit into the regional whole.

Once Metrolinx and the City come back and see how useless the section on Eglinton really is, it will get rolled into RER and we won't hear of that useless name again.
Yeah this is pretty much what I think too. Smarttrack is just RER by another name. It would duplicate RER lines that are already happening (and funded). Really the only outcome that makes sense is the two being merged.

Why stop at Sheppard. It could veer eastward to hit Seneca College directly, and then slightly more east to hit that McNicoll office park at the 404, then slightly into Markham.
Probably because that's where the subway and Sheppard LRT will meet anyway - it's the major transfer hub for the area. Extending it a concession or two north would just create another transfer. Kind of like how the streetcar lines stop at Bloor and beyond that are bus routes - the forced transfer happens where the most people are already getting off.

Then again, the way they're handling rapid transit in Scarborough completely ignores all of that logic, so who knows. Realistically, any potential extension past Don Mills is so far in the future that we might as well be talking about hovercars.
 
I'd be surprised if they did that. Where exactly would you run it? Above Don Mills would be a nonstarter.
Trenched?

Looks like Metrolinx is not too enthusiastic about the extension to Dundas West station from Downtown.

I am skeptical if that is where the western leg of the DRL should end up when SmartTrack will follow a similar route. I think Sunnyside and an interchange transit hub with the LakeShore West GO-RER and WWLRT lines could potentially be a more desirable terminus.

I can't see a western leg going in at the same time as the eastern -- it would make the entire project far too expensive, and offer much less in terms of relief for the system. As long as the possibility of western extension isn't precluded by the design, I'd be happy with just the primary eastern leg as the first stage.

Really the western leg just needs to be extended to Spadina and Bathurst. That is all for the next little while.

Looking at the $4.3b price tag of going north of the Danforth the Northbound DRL extension does not make sense unless Yonge reaches capacity. I assume the recommendation will be that it should be timed as such.

Given the numbers, it appears that the Yonge subway will be at capacity very soon after Yonge North Extension opens.
 
Small caveat about the LONG option:

Between Downtown and Danforth the line is expected to move 10,800 pphpd. The 11 km LONG option adds another 8,400 pphpd to this. So it's not as if we'll be having 19,200 pphpd moving through the Don Mills subway. The usage/km of this section isn't anything to brag about. Between Sheppard and Eglinton, it performs worse than the Scarborough Subway (in terms of pphpd moved through the section).

It's impact on Yonge ridership should still make this a great investment, however.

Keep in mind however that there would be massive redevelopment potential between Barber Greene, Leslie, Eglinton and the DVP/Wynford Drive. South of Eglinton there are also redevelopable parking lots at the Science Centre, SW Corner of Don Mills-Eglinton and in Flemingdon Park.

Further north, there is the Lawrence-Don Mills neighbourhood that is currently undergoing a lot of redevelopment, with a lot more redevelopment expected to come with a subway. (Reason why I advocate pushing the DRL to at least Lawrence in the past)

It would be great to eliminate the need for an interchange station at Don Mills and Sheppard and just have the Sheppard line turn south towards Don Mills thereby finally justifying the existence of the stubway and ending the Sheppard East subway debate once and for all. Would be difficult though given the location of Don Mills station... the curve south would have to be a wide one and stretch east of Don Mills and curve south under Parkway Forest Drive (following the curve of that road for example) then onto Don Mills. Just blue-skying.

I was thinking this too.

I would just create a new Sheppard-Don Mills station along with the DRL. Re-use the present Don Mills station for the Sheppard East LRT.

Very interesting results here. This study seems to confirm that Metrolinx is at least looking at northeast extensions. With the North Yonge extension dropping down the priority list, and SmartTrack's Eglinton leg likely to be chopped (it doesn't make much sense), this could be a prime situation for diverting those funds towards a SmartTrack tunnel through downtown, and a SmartTrack/GO RER branch along a re-aligned Richmond Hill line. North of Lawrence, using the RH corridor would drop the cost of any northward extension dramatically.
Yes, I saw that. That's routing all GO RER trains through Union though, and the RH line not hitting anything south of Sheppard though (maybe south of Eglinton if they re-route using the Don Branch). A lot of the relief would come from interchanges with the Eglinton and Bloor-Danforth lines, which the current RH alignment doesn't have.

Run the RH Line (GO RER + GO RER Local/SmartTrack) through a tunnel starting at Lawrence following the 'traditional' DRL alignment into downtown, and you get the farther reach of RER, and the same connectivity as the TTC Subway option. If extending the DRL to Sheppard provides additional relief to Yonge, surely going to RHC with stations at all concession roads in between would provide even greater relief. If you can manage to eliminate the uselessness of the RH line south of Sheppard (in the valley), you'd have a pretty damn good relief line.

Yes this is the option that makes the most sense to me given the prospective budget we have.

Here is how it could look like in a fantasy map I made a few weeks ago:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-276#post-1005363
toronto_smarttrack-png.47400

I think this rendition of Richmond Hill commuter rail line would provide much more relief to the Yonge line than what was studied by Metrolinx. It essentially follows the DRL route except it goes to Langstaff Transit Hub.
 
I think this rendition of Richmond Hill commuter rail line would provide much more relief to the Yonge line than what was studied by Metrolinx. It essentially follows the DRL route except it goes to Langstaff Transit Hub.

Agreed completely. It's the DRL alignment south of Lawrence, and the RH alignment north of it. If you route both SmartTrack (GO RER Local) and the full GO RER through that route, you could easily get subway-level frequencies. You could also create a short turn pocket at Sheppard if you wanted to boost frequencies even more inside of Toronto.
 
I am not sure you even need to keep the GO RH route - there is really no compelling reason why that is necessary once you have a DRL-RH line.

AoD
 
I am not sure you even need to keep the GO RH route - there is really no compelling reason why that is necessary once you have a DRL-RH line.

AoD
Reasons for doing it is for cheaper SmartTrack pricing to encourage more transit users and to short-turn vehicles and increase frequency to subway levels within Toronto.

Though I suppose you could also short-turn vehicles at Sheppard. When I made my map, I had the Langstaff Mobility Hub and the promised massive development there in mind.
 
It would be better if they made the RH route more direct and less squiggly. It could replace a DRL north and give Leslie station on the Crosstown a reason for existing if it intersected the Crosstown there.
 
Reasons for doing it is for cheaper SmartTrack pricing to encourage more transit users and to short-turn vehicles and increase frequency to subway levels within Toronto.

Though I suppose you could also short-turn vehicles at Sheppard. When I made my map, I had the Langstaff Mobility Hub and the promised massive development there in mind.

If you are going to be running it as DRL (TTC fares), with subway frequency then keeping it GO is moot anyways - and like you've said, you can always have shortturning arrangements (e.g. St. Clair West on Line 1) The only instance where I see a benefit for keeping it within the GO RER context is if the line is expected to get extended a lot further, but I am not sure what's the scenario for that.

AoD
 
I am not sure you even need to keep the GO RH route - there is really no compelling reason why that is necessary once you have a DRL-RH line.

AoD

The way that I envision it is that the SmartTrack route (which would use the DRL alignment) would only run to Richmond Hill Centre, and use the Central Tunnel through downtown. The GO RER route on the other hand would use the DRL alignment until Gerrard Square, but then would switch to using the USRC east into Union, as well as extending further north into York Region. The GO RER route can also skip some of the more minor stations along the surface section of the route south of RHC.

There would be a similar setup on most other GO corridors, where the GO RER Local would end at a major inner-905 hub, while the full GO RER would continue further out. Only difference is the RH line would be using a tunnel for a significant amount of it's length.
 
If these plans are basically the DRL route (tunneled) south of Lawrence, then I don't understand how these plans are any cheaper than the Long Relief Line that they looked at in the report, which only went to Sheppard.

Sure, you are saving on tunneling costs by only tunneling south of Lawrence, but you are also adding significant costs by extending the line all the way to Langstaff. The Lawrence - Langstaff at-grade portion is probably 5 - 6 times longer than Lawrence to Sheppard along Don Mills. You also need to add in the cost of grade separation for the Doncaster Diamond, and a costlier station at Gerrard Square to support the switching service that is being described, as it needs to be able to simultaneously send trains downtown via tunnel and to Union at-grade via the rail corridor.

Yeah, I get that the idea is to provide a DRL as well as an improved RH GO line, but if you look at the numbers in the Metrolinx relief study, it is pretty clear that the few passengers who take RH GO hardly matter (and would be better served by GO RER), and that the bulk of the ridership is being redirected from Yonge (ie. coming from points east and not Thornhill/Richmond Hill).
 
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Reasons for doing it is for cheaper SmartTrack pricing to encourage more transit users and to short-turn vehicles and increase frequency to subway levels within Toronto.
There's no reason to think that Smarttrack or the TTC in general will be any cheaper than GO over the same distances when fares are integrated.
 

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