nfitz
Superstar
What do you mean proper? About half the Phase 1 is outside of the City of Kitchener, as it most of Phase 2? The population of just the City of Kitchener has no relevance.
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dunkalunk
Senior Member
Perhaps not the best example, but Buffalo (259,384) is actually smaller than K-W (364,800 Kitchener and Waterloo, 477,160 Kitchener - Cambridge - Waterloo CMA 2011). A better example is Edmonton which had a population of 478,066 in 1978; the year its LRT line opened. The Region of Waterloo will have roughly the same population in 20 years as Edmonton does currently.
I do agree that London BRT is a good candidate for funding. It would also be great to see some funding go towards expanding GO bus service out there along 401/403 to build up demand for an eventual DMU service.
1overcosc
Active Member
Kingston is currently rolling out an express bus system and that's honestly all they really need. It doesn't really need capital funding, although operational funding would be nice. The City has made it clear, though, that they have no qualms about increasing property tax rates to add more service hours, currently the municipal contribution is growing at nearly 10%-15% a year.
The only really big infrastructure need Kingston has is a new bridge across the Cataraqui River, estimated at $200M. Glen Murray has already indicated that the government will be paying for that, as well as a possible fixed link to the USA via Wolfe Island.
The only really big infrastructure need Kingston has is a new bridge across the Cataraqui River, estimated at $200M. Glen Murray has already indicated that the government will be paying for that, as well as a possible fixed link to the USA via Wolfe Island.
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nfitz
Superstar
Buffalo, like most American cities, is made up of many municipalities that are connected to each other. The Buffalo urban area is almost 1 million.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
US direct link would be a huge project.. 1.7km bridge and 1.5km bridge, along with ~20km of new highway (probably super 2). The new bridge that costs $200 million is 1km long.
London doesn't need GO service, its well outside the GTA economic area. HSR will serve it fine and the difference can be handled by private operators.
London doesn't need GO service, its well outside the GTA economic area. HSR will serve it fine and the difference can be handled by private operators.
nfitz
Superstar
That would be a bargain. The current ferry costs $6 million a year to operate, and probably needs replacing with 2 ferries, given it's age (almost 40 years old now), and lack of capacity. If operating costs increase to $10 million, the bridge alone would pay for itself in 20 years, if it only cost $200 million, and was only for the Island without a second bridge to the USA.
Perhaps now is the time to do that, before they spend a quarter of that on new ferries.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
$200 million is for the third crossing over the bay, The wolf Island project would likely cost around $1 billion once the two tall bridges (required to let shipping traffic through), new highway, and expensive border control points are constructed.
nfitz
Superstar
Wolfe Island doesn't need two tall bridges, and a new highway, or customs crossing. They just need a single bridge to replace the current ferry. In a cost-benefit evaluation you only need to compare to the existing situation, whether you replace the existing ferry or not. The second (private) ferry to the US is very lightly used.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
well 1overcosc was discussing a fixed link to the US over Wolfe Island, which is what I am discussing.
Where would the approaches on the main land be? And any project like that would require a pretty significant infrastructure investment on the US side as well, because there isn't an interstate or even a major state road near Cape Vincent for miles.
nfitz
Superstar
Why worry about the US side ... Wolfe Islanders haven't been asking for a fixed link to the US. The current ferry isn't that heavily used. It's a fixed link to the mainland that they want ... and this doesn't require significant infrastructure other than a bridge, and some paving. Presumably you'd connected into 10th Line Road on the island, and perhaps to Milton Island on the north side, and then connect to Highway 2.
That would be the 4th Cataraqui River crossing in Kingston. First at Kingston Mills, second is the LaSalle Causeway, and the third was the 401. They've been talking about that 4th crossing (somewhere between Highway 2 and 401) since I lived in Kingston in the 1970s!
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BurlOak
Senior Member
Yes, if we extrapolate the recent 5 years success story that is RIM, KW should grow a lot.
1overcosc
Active Member
Fixed link to the USA is something Murray mentioned as a possibility a few months ago with the mayor of Kingston. That would be two new bridges, one from Kingston to Wolfe Island, and another from Wolfe Island to Cape Vincent. It would be very expensive, and is probably not feasible unless the Thousand Islands crossing becomes severely congested. I imagine it's more something that's thrown into the air as something worth maybe studying, but not necessarily as something worth building.
The Kingston-Wolfe Island fixed link alone is much more likely.
The John Counter bridge, the 3rd crossing, is a $200M project but that bridge is going to be 4 lanes wide. A Wolfe Island crossing, from Highway 2 east of the city, would cost something like $300M probably. The ferry is getting increasingly expensive, it needs replacing soon, it's getting congested and likely needs higher frequency (and thus another ship), and it needs icebreaking in winter which can cost a lot in colder years. Because the ferry directly links downtown Kingston and Marysville (the only population centre on the island), it allows many people in the village to live car free (which in fact they do), so a bridge would have to have transit service on it which would cost a lot annually. Given that the ferry is paid for by the province, whereas a transit link would almost certainly be paid for municipally, it would effectively be a sneaky download.
The John Counter bridge has indeed been talked about for decades, and was very close to being built in the early 1980s. Kingston is still deciding if they even want it, although there's a growing consensus that they do.
The Kingston-Wolfe Island fixed link alone is much more likely.
The John Counter bridge, the 3rd crossing, is a $200M project but that bridge is going to be 4 lanes wide. A Wolfe Island crossing, from Highway 2 east of the city, would cost something like $300M probably. The ferry is getting increasingly expensive, it needs replacing soon, it's getting congested and likely needs higher frequency (and thus another ship), and it needs icebreaking in winter which can cost a lot in colder years. Because the ferry directly links downtown Kingston and Marysville (the only population centre on the island), it allows many people in the village to live car free (which in fact they do), so a bridge would have to have transit service on it which would cost a lot annually. Given that the ferry is paid for by the province, whereas a transit link would almost certainly be paid for municipally, it would effectively be a sneaky download.
The John Counter bridge has indeed been talked about for decades, and was very close to being built in the early 1980s. Kingston is still deciding if they even want it, although there's a growing consensus that they do.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
I seriously doubt the ability of the Ontario government to afford this stuff. We do not need useless rural infrastructure projects like Japan in the 1990s.
nfitz
Superstar
Counter Street eh ... it would be the 4th crossing though in Kingston, not the 3rd.
Does it? I don't recall them needing to do icebreaking in those cold winters after they installed the bubble system. I thought they'd only need to icebreak the US ferry.
Doesn't it? If it's only $300 million for a bridge, and you need to drop about $50 million on ferries and $10 million a year on operation, wouldn't it get to the point where the bridge would save you money? Particularly if you download the bridge to the City, and don't even have to worry about maintenance.