Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[W. K. Lis]

My understanding of it is that it's restricted to longer frequencies due to practical capacities of unloading passengers at stations and turn around times at terminii.

The OL business case projects capacity to be adequate to at least 2077.

The Yonge Line with it's initial design capacity was facing issues for capacity by the 1980's, only 30 years after opening. this was negated by years of declining ridership in the 90's though.

There is no point doubling a project budget to provide capacity for a line which won't be required for another half century. There are too many variables in that equation and if the line does end up running over in the 2070's, there are other solutions.

Toronto's Rocket subway trains are some of the highest capacity subway trains on the planet. There really isn't a need to hold to that design. If you want to design the OL to actually be able to handle 48,000 PPHD as well, you would be looking at building massive stations with huge pedestrian circulation spaces to handle thousands of passengers exiting trains and clearing them all from the platform before the next train arrives 90 seconds later. There's just no point, it's better to just build a second subway line in the 2070's when the OL runs over.

The problems really started when the TTC Board of Directors started having councillors on the board. Today, it is a mix, but there is no requirement that the board actually use the TTC regularly or daily.

Even back in 2014, then Councillor Doug Ford wanted to fire the seven city councillors on the commission and replace them with seven "business" people. See link, dated 2014/02/14. Unfortunately, we still have politicians who rather have non-transit users on the TTC board.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I thought 48,000 was the ultimate capacity with 90-second service. Which will require significant upgrades to reduce dwell times, including a second platform at Bloor Station.

Sure, the shorter trains on the Ontario Line can meet the required capacity about 10 years after it opens. But what about 40 years after it opens?

The business case has it meeting capacity to 2077, 37 years after it opens.

And again, that’s an appropriate time frame to consider a new subway line anyway through the core. There is no reason to double construction costs to delay the capacity overload point from 2077 to 2090 - you will just be faced with the same problem anyway. There are far too many variables involved before then regardless, it’s not good infrastructure planning to spend major money on uncertain events occurring 2 generations from now. That money can be better deployed today for projects that have an immediate impact.

 

[EnviroTO]

Don't these numbers defy logic? Capacity is a function of train capacity and frequency with some upper limits related to station capacity. Everything I have seen indicates a platform length that is shorter than YUS by a third, and a train that is not as wide. The one redeeming quality is platform with and second sets of vertical circulation which should reduce dwell... but dwell ties into max frequency.

If the Ontario line train's capacity per length is equal to YUS then an Ontario Line train needs to arrive at a frequency 33% less. So if the YUS arrives every 2 min, the OL needs to arrive every 80 seconds. However, how can the capacity of the OL train be the same capacity per length? TTC subway cars are massive, both very wide and very long. Coupling / articulation points reduce capacity. To get the same capacity into smaller cars would require removing seats and turning the thing into a mosh pit... which you could do on the YUS.

It doesn't make sense to me and I will believe it when I see it.

 

[nfitz]

And again, that’s an appropriate time frame to consider a new subway line anyway through the core.

Fair enough. And in reality, a new north-south line is necessary.

I've suggested it before, an express line up Bay Street that transitions to Yonge Street near St. Clair along the west side of Davisville yard, and then merging and maybe even taking over the existing line. Running up Duplex is an option for one of the lines as well. Perhaps even taking over Line 4 at Senlac. Stations at Queens Quay, Front, King, Queen, Dundas, Bloor, St. Clair, Eglinton. Not immanently, but ultimately.

 

[ARG1]

Don't these numbers defy logic? Capacity is a function of train capacity and frequency with some upper limits related to station capacity. Everything I have seen indicates a platform length that is shorter than YUS by a third, and a train that is not as wide. The one redeeming quality is platform with and second sets of vertical circulation which should reduce dwell... but dwell ties into max frequency.

If the Ontario line train's capacity per length is equal to YUS then an Ontario Line train needs to arrive at a frequency 33% less. So if the YUS arrives every 2 min, the OL needs to arrive every 80 seconds. However, how can the capacity of the OL train be the same capacity per length? TTC subway cars are massive, both very wide and very long. Coupling / articulation points reduce capacity. To get the same capacity into smaller cars would require removing seats and turning the thing into a mosh pit... which you could do on the YUS.

It doesn't make sense to me and I will believe it when I see it.

The TRs aren't really built to maximize capacity. There are a lot of design deficits that could be fixed such as longitudinal seating (which overall I'm against, but if our goal is to maximize capacity that's an easy picking), and the fact that the TRs aren't actually 150m long, but are instead much shorter than that at like 140m (this can be seen with the amount of space there is between the end of the train and the end of the platform).

 

[W. K. Lis]

We have "Dundas West Station", "St. Clair West Station", "Lawrence West Station", "Eglinton West Station" (okay, that one is alleged to be renamed "Cedarvale Station"), "Sheppard West Station" (was "Downsview Station"), and "Finch West Station".

Now we will have, coming soon, "Science Centre Station" for Line 5. The Ontario Line (Line ?) will use the same name, "Science Centre Station", as its "temporary" terminal station.

There is to be a "Flemingdon Park Station". Since it would be right at the entrance of the Ontario Science Centre (unless they expand the entrance toward Eglinton Avenue), how about using "Science Centre South Station" instead? Or worse, "Ontario Science Centre Station"?

 

[fanoftoronto]

My understanding of it is that it's restricted to longer frequencies due to practical capacities of unloading passengers at stations and turn around times at terminii.

The OL business case projects capacity to be adequate to at least 2077.

The Yonge Line with it's initial design capacity was facing issues for capacity by the 1980's, only 30 years after opening. this was negated by years of declining ridership in the 90's though.

There is no point doubling a project budget to provide capacity for a line which won't be required for another half century. There are too many variables in that equation and if the line does end up running over in the 2070's, there are other solutions.

Toronto's Rocket subway trains are some of the highest capacity subway trains on the planet. There really isn't a need to hold to that design. If you want to design the OL to actually be able to handle 48,000 PPHD as well, you would be looking at building massive stations with huge pedestrian circulation spaces to handle thousands of passengers exiting trains and clearing them all from the platform before the next train arrives 90 seconds later. There's just no point, it's better to just build a second subway line in the 2070's when the OL runs over.

Honest question, why would the YUS have capacity limit holding it to a headway of 115 seconds but the OL can handle 90 second headways? They have fewer number of doors, the trains are not as wide, stations are smaller to reduce cost. Wouldn't OL be the same or have higher dwell times forcing a longer headways?

Also, source on the Ontario Line meeting projected demand until 2077? And in your post you also state that we can't plan or predict things 50 years in the future, and get confidently state OL is good 50 years from now.

 

[ARG1]

Honest question, why would the YUS have capacity limit holding it to a headway of 115 seconds but the OL can handle 90 second headways? There have fewer number of doors, the trains are not as wide, stations are smaller to reduce cost. Wouldn't OL be the same or have higher dwell times forcing a longer headways?

Platform Screen Doors, platform capacity, end of line operations (the trains running into the tail tracks then reversing to the other platform Montreal/Moscow style), full automation, how the line itself is designed in relation to the capabilities of the trains, differences in signalling, etc.

Also, source on the 2077 date? And in your post you also state that we can't plan or predict things 50 years in the future?

It was in an interview with Reece Martin:

 

[toronto647]

This was bit under reported here! However, the final environmental impact assessment report was published and the Minister has 35 days to provide notice of approval. Circle your calendars for Friday the 13th of May. This will be a huge victory for Ford right before the June 2 election date.

Environmental Impact Assessment Report

Read the full Environmental Impact Assessment Report for the Ontario Line.

www.metrolinxengage.com

". Effective April 8, 2022, the Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report will be available on the project webpage (www.metrolinx.com/ontarioline). Within 35 days after receipt of the Notice of Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report, the Minister of the Environment, Conservation and Parks may issue a notice to Metrolinx imposing conditions related to the Ontario Line. The Minister may also choose to inform Metrolinx that no notice will be issued.

The Minister may issue a notice only if:

• The Minister is of the opinion that the way in which Metrolinx has addressed a concern raised in the issues resolution process would cause unreasonable delay to the implementation of the Ontario Line and the conditions in the Minister’s notice change the way in which the concern is addressed in the Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report without causing unreasonable delay to the implementation of the Ontario Line; or
• The Minister is of the opinion that the Ontario Line may have an adverse impact on the existing Aboriginal or treaty rights of the Indigenous peoples within Canada, and the conditions may prevent, mitigate, or remedy the adverse impact.

Once the Minister gives notice, confirms that no notice will be given, or the 35-day Minister’s review period is complete, Metrolinx will submit a statement of completion to the Ministry and post the statement of completion on the project webpage. The statement of completion will indicate that Metrolinx will proceed with the Ontario Line as described in the Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report, subject to any conditions imposed by the Minister."

 

[Kitsune]

This was bit under reported here! However, the final environmental impact assessment report was published and the Minister has 35 days to provide notice of approval. Circle your calendars for Friday the 13th of May. This will be a huge victory for Ford right before the June 2 election date.

Environmental Impact Assessment Report

Read the full Environmental Impact Assessment Report for the Ontario Line.

www.metrolinxengage.com

". Effective April 8, 2022, the Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report will be available on the project webpage (www.metrolinx.com/ontarioline). Within 35 days after receipt of the Notice of Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report, the Minister of the Environment, Conservation and Parks may issue a notice to Metrolinx imposing conditions related to the Ontario Line. The Minister may also choose to inform Metrolinx that no notice will be issued.

The Minister may issue a notice only if:

• The Minister is of the opinion that the way in which Metrolinx has addressed a concern raised in the issues resolution process would cause unreasonable delay to the implementation of the Ontario Line and the conditions in the Minister’s notice change the way in which the concern is addressed in the Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report without causing unreasonable delay to the implementation of the Ontario Line; or
• The Minister is of the opinion that the Ontario Line may have an adverse impact on the existing Aboriginal or treaty rights of the Indigenous peoples within Canada, and the conditions may prevent, mitigate, or remedy the adverse impact.

Once the Minister gives notice, confirms that no notice will be given, or the 35-day Minister’s review period is complete, Metrolinx will submit a statement of completion to the Ministry and post the statement of completion on the project webpage. The statement of completion will indicate that Metrolinx will proceed with the Ontario Line as described in the Final Environmental Impact Assessment Report, subject to any conditions imposed by the Minister."

I don't remember seeing Appendix C - Profile drawings before .. https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/appendix_c_-_ontario_line_profile_drawings.pdf

Who wants to be adventurous and figure out the platform lengths?

 

[BB ON]

I don't remember seeing Appendix C - Profile drawings before .. https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/appendix_c_-_ontario_line_profile_drawings.pdf

Who wants to be adventurous and figure out the platform lengths?

100m.

 

[generalcanada]

is it me or is that a reallly steep tunnel?

 

[ssiguy2]

Capacity will not be a proble. This is a high capacity line and remember that by the time it opens, RER will be going strong so you won't get as many people from Scar taking the subway in the first place.

What I'm interested in is what happens to Queen when the line is done. Do they still intend to run the Queen streetcar? Are they going to make Queen a pedestrian only zone or is the city going to continue to place pedestrians at the back of the bus and just ;et it stay the same as it is now? I don't recall this being discussed but it's an important issue when it comes to the effect the OL will have on the city's urban development and realm.

 

[H4F33Z]

Capacity will not be a proble. This is a high capacity line and remember that by the time it opens, RER will be going strong so you won't get as many people from Scar taking the subway in the first place.

What I'm interested in is what happens to Queen when the line is done. Do they still intend to run the Queen streetcar? Are they going to make Queen a pedestrian only zone or is the city going to continue to place pedestrians at the back of the bus and just ;et it stay the same as it is now? I don't recall this being discussed but it's an important issue when it comes to the effect the OL will have on the city's urban development and realm.

Depends on who is in the mayor's office by 2032

 

[Rainforest]

Capacity will not be a proble. This is a high capacity line and remember that by the time it opens, RER will be going strong so you won't get as many people from Scar taking the subway in the first place.

What I'm interested in is what happens to Queen when the line is done. Do they still intend to run the Queen streetcar? Are they going to make Queen a pedestrian only zone or is the city going to continue to place pedestrians at the back of the bus and just ;et it stay the same as it is now? I don't recall this being discussed but it's an important issue when it comes to the effect the OL will have on the city's urban development and realm.

In this case, I would go with retaining the streetcar service, while tweaking some of the routes. For example, today both #501 and #502 cross Yonge. Once the OL opens, #501 can continue serving downtown while #502 can be shortened and just connect the Kingston Road loop to the closest OL station.

OL by itself has a wide stop spacing, and does not stay on Queen for much of length. It cannot replace the streetcar; if the streetcar was removed then a bus route would be needed instead.