Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

JSF-1 said:
Because the TTC can run T1's and TR's on each line. Sure they don't in normal service but in a pinch the TTC can move trains around between the lines, and in fact they have done this on multiple ocassions; we've seen TR's on Line 2 and T1's on Line 1 multiple times. OL trains will be 100% incompatible with the rest of the network so unless its only going to be the first in a series of lines using the same trains, we end up with vehicles whose utility is limited to only one line. Even the current LRT projects will use different vehicles yet both the Finch LRT and Eglinton Crosstown are built to the same or similar standard so if necessary Metrolinx could move Flexity's to the Finch line or Citadis's to the Eglinton line. As well to your point about other cities, most if not all other cities tend to have multiple lines that are compatible with each other. So even if each line has its own unique looking rolling stock, they can be moved to different lines without much issue if necessary.
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Finch and Eglinton will be maintained by two separate entities. Moving trains between is probably contractually impossible.

The problem with the RT was never that it was 'an orphan technology.' It is practically the same system used in Vancouver and other cities worldwide. The problem was that political pressure caused some stations to be built incorrectly, removed automation, and then cut maintenance for the rest of its life. The initial technical problems did not help the line's political image at all. People don't seem to realize the RT and the Skytrain opened within months of each other. Vancouver upgraded and expanded theirs. Toronto and Ontario only kept pointing fingers and screaming "I told you so".
Two years after the RT, London England built a similar automated system that was infamous for its unreliability for the first few years of its life. But they fixed it, then repeatedly expanded it.

In Toronto, we debated fixing the SRT until it literally started to fall apart.
 
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Deadpool X said:
If you consider newer systems, for example, the ones in Asia, they are not doing that. Maybe it's just an overkill. You talked about bulk ordering but most of the times, there could be a decade's gap between the need to upgrade rolling stock of one line from another. For example, you won't order trains for Line 1 and Line 2 at the same time. Line 1's trains will last a lot longer compared to Line 2's.
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They will order new trains for Line 1, and move the Line 1 trains to Line 2. The line 2 trains move to Line 4. Line 4 trains can be retired. When they need new SRT trains, where do the old ones go?,
 
JSF-1 said:
It''ll be a dumb decision if this is the only line that uses the new trains. At least over in Sydney and Montreal the departure from old to new is part of a larger scheme, they aren't just one off lines. If the OL is the only line that uses the new trains then it will be a dumb decision. If we intend on building more lines with the new trains than it will be fine (it would be even better if any lines using the new trains would be physically connected to each other). If we build the OL and then never use the trains again on another line then we just end up with an SRT style situation where we have an "orphaned" technology/line. As it stands now though the OL is the only project that will use these trains so there is nothing wrong being skeptical of its logic.
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First, when Sydney Metro and REM were announced, they didn't come prepackaged with future plans. Second, even in these cities the benefits of track sharing aren't seen. REM B won't even have a rail connection to REM A, meaning that trains on REM B stay on REM B, and trains on REM A will stay on REM A.
 
JSF-1 said:
How does having consistency for how a lines are designed in any way cost "Billions of Dollars?" All that I and everyone is saying is if we are going to be using trains that will only ever be used on one line and never anywhere else and they are designed to a completely different standard from the rest of the system then we are going to end up with an orphaned line and technology. If we are planning on building more lines with these trains in mind then fine, all of this becomes a moot point. If we are planning to build the OL with 3rd rail power and TTC guage tracks then this becomes a moot point. However if we are planning to build the OL with overhead caternary and standard guage tracks, and then never building another line with the same standards than we have a problem. We end up with another SRT which for lack of a better term is properitary. The trains can't be used anywhere else, the parts can't be used or gotten from anywhere else, and we end up spending more money on maintenance for what is for all intents and purposes a proprietary service. In the event of service problems, we can't move trains around, we can do that on the subway and the TTC has done this but you can't do it with the SRT, and if the OL is going to be a one and done deal for these new trains than we're going to have the exact same problem.
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I'll just say think about the costs of not have systems that are similar to existing lines vs extra money that we will need to spend to keep building new lines with historical specs.

micheal_can said:
They will order new trains for Line 1, and move the Line 1 trains to Line 2. The line 2 trains move to Line 4. Line 4 trains can be retired. When they need new SRT trains, where do the old ones go?,
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That's because they want to have newer trains on Line 1. Is that even necessary? No! They can keep running TRs on Line 1 for next 15 years and replace Line 2's trains with entirely new stock.
 
micheal_can said:
They will order new trains for Line 1, and move the Line 1 trains to Line 2. The line 2 trains move to Line 4. Line 4 trains can be retired. When they need new SRT trains, where do the old ones go?,
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Line 4 uses the same trains as line 1 now they transferred all of the ones from it to line 2 which is why they had to add more storage at Vincent yard by Dundas West station.
 
NoahB said:
Finch and Eglinton will be maintained by two separate entities. Moving trains between is probably contractually impossible.
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It's pretty stupid if they wrote the contract that they would only maintain one type of trains. If they buy another type of train, ML would just have to foot the bill for training and maintenance would just be billed for the work done. This is a 30 year contract and who knows what gets built in 20 years. Maybe they'll fund the Jane LRT to connect them.
 
EastYorkTTCFan said:
Line 4 uses the same trains as line 1 now they transferred all of the ones from it to line 2 which is why they had to add more storage at Vincent yard by Dundas West station.
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Well, specially built 4-car versions. But yes. TTC's newest trainsets ... they did something like modifying the order to get the final 4 six-car sets, as 6 four-car sets.
 
The thing that I find most frustrating about the SRT is that the CLRV was just as much a piece of UTDC technology as ICTS. In business development terms literally everything would have come out better if the SRT had been allowed to be a demonstrator for UTDC light rail and the Hamilton were prioritized for ICTS marketing.
 
Steve X said:
It's pretty stupid if they wrote the contract that they would only maintain one type of trains. If they buy another type of train, ML would just have to foot the bill for training and maintenance would just be billed for the work done. This is a 30 year contract and who knows what gets built in 20 years. Maybe they'll fund the Jane LRT to connect them.
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You misunderstand. Reread my post.
I did not say that they are locked to one type of train. I said that Mosaic Transit Group (Finch) will not lend its trains to Crosslinx Transit Solutions(Eglinton), and vice versa. They each have a separate design/build/finance/maintain contract. They will not not be playing tradeseez✨ with each other. So the fact that they use the same rolling stock is moot. The only thing coming from it is bulk ordering.
 
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JSF-1 said:
It''ll be a dumb decision if this is the only line that uses the new trains. At least over in Sydney and Montreal the departure from old to new is part of a larger scheme, they aren't just one off lines. If the OL is the only line that uses the new trains then it will be a dumb decision. If we intend on building more lines with the new trains than it will be fine (it would be even better if any lines using the new trains would be physically connected to each other). If we build the OL and then never use the trains again on another line then we just end up with an SRT style situation where we have an "orphaned" technology/line. As it stands now though the OL is the only project that will use these trains so there is nothing wrong being skeptical of its logic.
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It should be possible, and might be advisable, to extend the OL to Sheppard and then convert the existing Sheppard stub to the OL line's technology:
- Will make extending the Sheppard line further east and west more affordable.
- The extensions would be fully grade-separated, and afford same speed as the subway. The converted line will have less capacity, but that lesser capacity may be sufficient for Sheppard for a very long time.
- Conversion from TTC subway to the high-floor OL rolling stock should be a lot cheaper than conversion to low-floor LRT.
 
Requests for Proposals Issued for Ontario Line
December 17, 2020
TORONTO – Infrastructure Ontario (IO) and Metrolinx have issued two Requests for Proposals (RFPs) for procurement packages for the Ontario Line subway project. Teams have been shortlisted and invited to bid on the Ontario Line Southern Civil, Stations and Tunnel (South) package and the Ontario Line Rolling Stock, Systems, Operations and Maintenance (RSSOM) package.
Teams were selected based on criteria identified in the Request for Qualifications (RFQ) process that began in June 2020. Criteria included design, construction, operations and maintenance experience and the financial capacity to deliver projects of this size and complexity.
For the Ontario Line RSSOM package, three teams were shortlisted. Their prime team members are:
Connect 6ix
  • Applicant Lead: Plenary Americas, Hitachi Rail STS SpA, Japan Infrastructure Initiative Co. Ltd., Webuild SpA, Transdev Canada
  • Design Team: Hitachi Rail Canada, Webuild/Astaldi Canada Design & Construction, IBI Group Professional Services (Canada) Inc.
  • Construction Team: Hitachi Rail Canada, Webuild/Astaldi Canada
  • Maintenance and Rehabilitation Team: Hitachi Rail Canada, Transdev Canada
  • Operations Team: Hitachi Rail Canada, Transdev Canada
  • Financial Advisor: National Bank Financial Inc., Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation
ONConnects
  • Applicant Leads: Aecon Concessions, Siemens Project Ventures, Keolis SA
  • Design Team: Siemens Mobility, Hatch Inc.
  • Construction Team: Aecon Infrastructure Management, Siemens Mobility
  • Maintenance and Rehabilitation Team: Siemens Mobility, Aecon O&M, Keolis Canada
  • Operations Team: Aecon O&M, Keolis Canada
  • Financial Advisor: Scotia Capital
ONLineLinx
  • Applicant Lead: John Laing, Alstom Transport Canada,
  • Design Team: Alstom Transport Canada, Parsons
  • Construction Team: Alstom Transport Canada, FCC Construction Canada, Amico Infrastructures, Pomerleau Inc., Mass Electric Canada
  • Maintenance and Rehabilitation Team: Alstom Transport Canada, Deutsche Bahn International Operations, SMRT International
  • Operations Team: Alstom Transport Canada, Deutsche Bahn International Operations, SMRT International
  • Financial Advisor: HSBC Securities (Canada)
For Ontario Line South package, three teams were prequalified. Their prime team members are:
Community Transit Link
  • Applicant Lead: Aecon Infrastructure Management Inc., Dragados Canada Inc., STRABAG Inc.
  • Design Team: Arup Canada Inc., Hatch Ltd.
  • Construction Team: Aecon Infrastructure Management Inc., Dragados Canada Inc., STRABAG Inc.
    • Financial Advisor: ACS Infrastructure Canada Inc., Aecon Concessions, National Bank Financial Inc.
ON-Linx
  • Applicant Leads: Webuild S.p.A., Astaldi Canada Enterprises Inc., Amico Infrastructures Inc., Saipem S.p.A.
  • Design Team: IBI Group Professional Services Canada Inc., Arcadis Canada Inc.
  • Construction Team: Webuild S.p.A., Astaldi Canada Design & Construction Inc., Amico Infrastructures Inc., Saipem S.p.A.
Ontario Transit Group
  • Applicant Lead: Ferrovial Construction Canada Inc., VINCI Construction Grands Projets
  • Design Team: AECOM Canada Ltd., COWI North America Ltd., GHD Limited, SENER Group
  • Construction Team:Ferrovial Construction Canada Inc., Janin Atlas Inc.
  • Financial Advisor: HSBC
Teams will begin preparing proposals that detail how they will deliver these projects. Upon evaluating the proposals received, IO and Metrolinx expect to award these contracts in 2022.
A fairness monitor will oversee the entire procurement process.
The Ontario Line is being delivered as three separate public-private partnership (P3) procurement contracts: RSSOM, South and North packages. The RFQ for the Northern Civil, Stations and Tunnel contract, the north portion of the Ontario Line from the proposed station at Gerrard Street and Carlaw Avenue to the Ontario Science Centre, is expected to be issued in 2022. In addition to the three main P3 contracts, there will also be a series of early works projects for bridge, track and other preparatory activities in select locations along the Ontario Line alignment, including the joint rail corridor where the Ontario Line will operate next to existing GO Transit rail services. These contracts will be procured through a traditional procurement approach.
The Ontario Line is one of four priority transit projects announced by the Province in 2019 for the Greater Toronto Area. Procurements for the subway program are being staged to ensure each project is delivered successfully. Planning is underway for all four projects.
For more information, visit Infrastructure Ontario and Metrolinx.
Disponible en français
 
Great to see this. It’s still a little worrisome that the contract close is after the next election.

I’m also a little curious about why the RFQ for the Northern Civil Section is going out so late. Metrolinx claimed that this decision was made based on feedback from the private sector, but I’m curious as to the rationale. Does anyone know the reason?

At any rate, Hitachi, Siemens and Alstom are the rolling stock makers in play.
 
News Release
Ontario Line Subway Project Reaches Major Milestone
December 17, 2020
Requests for Proposals Issued to Deliver New Transit Infrastructure and Vehicles
TORONTO - The Ontario government is a step closer to getting shovels in the ground to build the Ontario Line, the signature project in the largest subway expansion program in Canadian history. The province issued two Requests for Proposals (RFPs) for procurement packages to design, build, finance, operate and maintain the Ontario Line project. The Preliminary Design Business Case for the Ontario Line was also released.
The announcement was made today by Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation, and Kinga Surma, Associate Minister of Transportation (GTA).
Following the Request for Qualifications (RFQ) process that began in June 2020, shortlisted teams are now invited by Infrastructure Ontario (IO) and Metrolinx to bid on two RFP packages:

  1. The first package includes designing, building, financing, operating and maintaining the subway trains, communications and train control systems, a maintenance and storage facility, and the fare equipment that will be integrated with the PRESTO system.

  2. The second package includes designing, building and financing the tunnels and transit stations for the southern segment of the line from Exhibition Place to just west of the Don River. It also includes utility and conduit work and building structures to prepare for track installation.

After evaluating the proposals received, IO and Metrolinx expect to award these contracts in 2022. The Ontario Line is being built under three separate public-private partnership (P3) contracts and a package of Early Works contracts.
"By issuing these first Ontario Line RFPs, Premier Ford's vision for a world-class regional transit system continues to make steady progress," said Minister Mulroney. "The COVID-19 pandemic has had a devastating impact on our economy, and major transit projects like this will contribute significantly to our recovery by stimulating future growth and job creation."
Issuing of the RFPs was accompanied by the release of the Preliminary Design Business Case for the Ontario Line, which offers a more detailed understanding of the project's design and benefits for the community, reflecting feedback from residents and businesses. Some of the benefits noted in the business case include faster travel and increased transit access and capacity.
Once complete, the Ontario Line will be one of the most technologically advanced subway systems in the world with the highest degree of automation, on par with subway systems in Paris, Copenhagen and Barcelona. During rush hour, travellers can look forward to an Ontario Line train arriving at each station as frequently as every 90 seconds, with improved comfort, safety and reliability.
"We are closer to delivering a state-of-the-art subway that leverages existing rail corridors to minimize costs and disruption," said Associate Minister Surma. "By building this project our government is bringing rapid transit to currently underserved neighbourhoods and developing transit-oriented communities which will provide needed housing options."
The Ontario Line Preliminary Design Business Case also highlights the economic benefits of this massive project with a forecast of over 4,700 construction jobs per year between 2020 and 2030, followed by continued employment after 2030 for the subway line's operations and maintenance. In addition, the business case estimates the Ontario Line could put more than 255,000 people within a 10-minute walk of a new Ontario Line station and serve up to 388,000 trips each day by 2041.
"Our government is making historic investments in our transit and transportation infrastructure to support the province's growth and economic recovery," said Laurie Scott, Minister of Infrastructure. "The Ontario Line is one of the most significant transit projects for the Greater Toronto Area in a generation and it will be delivered using Ontario's world-class P3 model, which will allow us to do it quickly and respect taxpayers."
In April 2019, the province announced its historic new transportation vision, with a preliminary estimated cost of $28.5 billion. This includes four priority transit projects: the all-new Ontario Line; a three-stop Scarborough Subway Extension; the Yonge North Subway Extension; and the Eglinton Crosstown West Extension.
QUICK FACTS
  • The Ontario Line will extend 15.6 kilometres between Exhibition/Ontario Place to the Ontario Science Centre, providing fast, frequent, and reliable service and significantly reducing crowding on other lines and routes.
  • With 15 transit stations, including new connections to GO Transit, existing TTC subway stations and streetcar lines, and the Eglinton Crosstown Light Rail Transit line, the brand-new Ontario line will create a more resilient and integrated transit network for commuters.
  • Moving people and reducing emissions is a core benefit of the Ontario Line, potentially reducing overall energy expended for transport by up to 7.2 million litres of automobile fuel every year – equivalent to nearly 120,000 fill ups at the pump per year.
  • Improving public transit is vital to supporting Ontario’s economic development and recovery. For every $1B invested in transit, over 10,000 hours of full-time employment is supported in a one-year period, boosting Ontario’s real GDP by another $1B, providing hundreds of millions of dollars in time savings to commuters, and significantly reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
  • The Ontario Line has a benefit cost ratio of 1.05, meaning that for every $1.00 invested in the Ontario Line, up to $1.05 is generated in socio-economic benefit for the City of Toronto.
  • In addition to the three P3 contracts, some segments of the Ontario Line will be procured separately, such as areas where it will run within GO Transit rail corridors. Work on these sections is expected to start before construction commences on the three major work packages, and procurement has already begun for the early works that will take place at Exhibition Station.
  • In July 2020, the Building Transit Faster Act became law, providing the province with the tools to expedite the planning, design and construction process of the four priority transit projects, including the Ontario Line.
BACKGROUND INFORMATION
ADDITIONAL RESOURCES
 
From the linked document:

“The IBC Operating Concept uses 100 m trains with a frequency of 40 trains per hour during the peak period.

The Refined Operating Concept uses 80 m trains and a phased service plan, which begins with 34 trains per hour in the peak period
and deploys additional service to respond to ridership growth over time. In this phasing plan, it is assumed that a 40 train per hour service level would be deployed by 2041, comparable to the IBC Operating Concept option.”

Wow. They've definiitely cut capacity. From 5 car trains to 4 car trains, and from 40 tph peak to 34 tph peak.

Other notes: "Stations are being built for 100 m long trains to allow a range of train sizes. Stations will be sized for 2080 demand"
 
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