Toronto MGM-Cadillac Fairview Casino Proposal for Exhibition Place | ?m | ?s | Cadillac Fairview

[interchange42]

Does anyone really believe we'd get much of a tourism bump from this? One casino would not allow us to compete with the What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas market. People who fly long distances to go to casinos head for Vegas or Macau or occasionally Atlantic City (and not enough to keep Atlantic City healthy in any way), and this won't be enough to crack that crowd. For short distance travel, well, there are already casinos all around that can and do adsorb the demand currently: second-tier locations in Orillia, Niagara Falls, Windsor. There are a bunch more third tier ones around Ontario. Detroit has three casinos IIRC. Is it experiencing a tourism influx? If so, it hasn't been enough to save that City: it's being taken over by the State of Michigan currently.

Maybe we'd get a few more conventions, but is it gambling that fuels Chicago's huge convention business? There are assorted casinos around the Chicago area, but none within walking distance of McCormick Place (although there is talk of adding one there).

Potential tourism increases are being over-sold in regard to a casino in Toronto. All one here would do is take some traffic off the QEW and the 400 and put it on the Gardiner.

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[CityPlaceN1]

The casino will suck some money from the tourist already here and may encourage some already thinking Toronto to come here rather than elsewhere. Vegas (even Vegas Jr.) we won't become unless they add some really fantastic related entertainment activities. Circue isn't enough.

 

[gabe]

Does anyone really believe we'd get much of a tourism bump from this?

Nope! Only 10% of the visitors who visit Montreal's Casino are from out of province. The gamblers who visit the Toronto casinos will be from mostly from the GTA to maybe K-W, Guelph area. London gamblers will still go to the Windsor-Detroit casinos and Hamilton area gamblers will still make their trips to Niagara Falls, and as you mentioned there is casinos all over the states.

Not that it would ever fly but Toronto would do better with one low end casino and one high-end casino. At Greektown I met people from Ontario who take bus tours to the GreekTown casino in Detroit and other Michigan casinos. It's a cheap getaway. $99 hotel rooms, cheap food, cheap drinks ($3 pints of beer) lower table minimums. compared to $200 a night hotel rooms, expensive food and drinks ($8 pints at the Ontario casinos.) You're average Ontario or American pensioner isn't going to make a lot of trips to a five star gaming resort in Toronto.

 

[DKsan]

Probably not even KW, since Woolwich council on Tuesday voted yes on the casino possibility.

 

[W. K. Lis]

from http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/112...n-of-an-integrated-resort-at-exhibition-place

I would prefer to see more of Lake Shore Blvd. covered over by that deck. If all the bridges over the Lake Shore could be covered over, that would be better. Maybe at minimum, the deck should be extended by about two or three more bridges to the west.

 

[Torontovibe]

^^ Where are people going to park if they only want to go to Ontario Place, once it reopens? They took away OP parking and replaced it with the CNE Midway, in that pic but where do they expect OP customers to park? (at the casino?) Will the casino want to take up valuable customer parking spaces, with families who don't come to gamble?

 

[ShonTron]

^^ Where are people going to park if they only want to go to Ontario Place, once it reopens? They took away OP parking and replaced it with the CNE Midway, in that pic but where do they expect OP customers to park? (at the casino?) Will the casino want to take up valuable customer parking spaces, with families who don't come to gamble?

Not to defend the proposal in any way (I prefer the Oxford/MTCC proposal if a casino is a done deal), but it won't just be Ontario Place that will have demand for parking, but also Toronto FC games, Royal Winter Fair, Toronto Boat Show, Toronto Sportsmen's Show, One of a Kind, lots of events that will have crowds that will want parking but not the kinds of crowds likely to be big gamblers at a casino. There may be some crossover with some concerts at the Amphitheatre and the Indy, but not too much.

That said, I would imagine the underground parking would be available for all functions in the area.

 

[W. K. Lis]

^^ Where are people going to park if they only want to go to Ontario Place, once it reopens? They took away OP parking and replaced it with the CNE Midway, in that pic but where do they expect OP customers to park? (at the casino?) Will the casino want to take up valuable customer parking spaces, with families who don't come to gamble?

The existing 3,500 surface parking spaces on Exhibition Place grounds and the 2,000 spaces on Ontario Place grounds are to be replaced by about 10,000 underground parking spaces. There are to be ramps from Lake Shore Boulevard West to the underground garage.

The TTC streetcar loop on the Exhibition grounds would be extended to connect with Dufferin Street. Don't know the route it would take, haven't seen the detail. Hopefully with a south bend, to provide better access closer to Ontario Place.

 

[jaycola]

Does anyone really believe we'd get much of a tourism bump from this?

Tourism is an area where we can grow Toronto's economy. Let's look for opportunities to bring people to a city that we are all proud of. Do you know what the tourism trends are and where the growth in tourism is coming from?

Source World Tourism Organization

International tourism to continue robust growth in 2013
PR No.: PR13006
Madrid
28 Jan 13

International tourist arrivals grew by 4% in 2012 to reach 1.035 billion, according to the latest UNWTO World Tourism Barometer. Emerging economies (+4.1%) regained the lead over advanced economies (+3.6%), with Asia and the Pacific showing the strongest results. Growth is expected to continue in 2013 only slightly below the 2012 level (+3% to +4%) and in line with UNWTO long term forecast.

With an additional 39 million international tourists, up from 996 million in 2011, international tourist arrivals surpassed 1 billion (1.035 billion) for the first time in history in 2012. Demand held well throughout the year, with a stronger than expected fourth quarter.

By region, Asia and the Pacific (+7%) was the best performer, while by sub-region South-East Asia, North Africa (both at +9%) and Central and Eastern Europe (+8%) topped the ranking.

“2012 saw continued economic volatility around the globe, particularly in the Eurozone. Yet international tourism managed to stay on course” said UNWTO Secretary-General, Taleb Rifai. “The sector has shown its capacity to adjust to the changing market conditions and, although at a slightly more modest rate, is expected to continue expanding in 2013. Tourism is thus one of the pillars that should be supported by governments around the world as part of the solution to stimulating economic growth,” he added.

Toronto is just emerging as a large vibrant city and we need to provide a variety of offerings to cater to the varied demands of tourists from around the world. Nobody is expecting this to be the one thing that makes Toronto a leading tourist destination but it will add to our draw as a tourist destination. This casino project would be an integrated resort, not a stand alone casino. Using Montreal or Detroit as an example is not appropriate. If placed at the Exhibition site, it would be alongside an improved Ontario place and with the Direct Energy Convention Centre, Molson Amphitheatre, BMO Field, Liberty Grand, Medieval Times and the Rexall Centre, there is a lot of action surrounding this site. Add more permanent venues within the many underused buildings surrounding the site and something unique could be in the offing.

If you accept that a Casino is an inevitability in Toronto, why not put forth proposals that will make it's success greatest? Placing it in Markham or at Woodbine will ensure you get the inward looking, revenue sucking white elephant many of you fear. Placing it in a vibrant location where there are many other options for entertainment and recreation will make it something people actually want to visit.

I agree that the draft proposal as put forward is boring but it is just that, a draft proposal. Once the city planners, local councilors and neighbourhood committees have an opportunity to comment on the development, maybe they can create something you would all want to visit on occasion.

 

[androiduk]

^ Well said jaycola. As you said, it's not just a Casino and if their Las Vegas operations are any indication MGM will bring in lots of big name entertainers and shows to bring in the crowds. As far as design goes, it's way too early to worry about that. What you see in the renders is probably not that close to what we'll end up with. With a project as large and controversial as this, you can be sure there will be heavy demands and lots of eyes on the end result.

 

[adma]

And the whole treacherous thing here is when relative to what's extant and cherished on-site (Ontario Place, the CNE facilities), schemes like this are pitched in a National Lampoon-esque "approve this scheme or we'll kill this dog" way. That is: casino, or wave bye-bye Cinesphere, etc.

Though when it comes to "buzz", what I find weird is how this seemingly innocuous scheme seems to be generating a *real* grassroots backlash, connected to a more universal trickling-up of anti-casino sentiment. It's like the promoters were hoping for more "oh wow" from Torontonians; but are instead confronting a whole lot of this kind of reaction

Jane Jacobs would be proud.

 

[TOareaFan]

If you've ever been to a Marlies game at the Ricoh Coliseum, you will realize that the Exhibition place is a dead zone. There is absolutely nothing to do after the game and though this proposal would add a bit of vibrancy to the EX, it is still disconnected from downtown.

I will admit to having never attended a Marlie's game but I have been to just about every TFC match at BMO Field and the experience has been quite different. A short stroll through the GO Train and, literally, thousands of TFC observers find things to do after (and before) the match. The bars and restaurants of Liberty Village, I am sure, are very aware of when there is a match on at BMO Field and I am sure they do a very large portion of their summer business on those days/nights.

Perhaps there is a demographic difference between Marlie and TFC support, I don't know, but to suggest there is nothing to do after the games is (IMO) incorrect.

You have 3 options after the Marlies game to get out of Exhibition place and that is A) car (which most people choose) B) taxi and C) GO train .

Missing, of course, from your list is the TTC.....the loop for the Bathurst and QQ lines is right there and the same short stroll I mentioned above takes you to the King car at Atlantic.

Again, never been to a Marlie game but one of the great successes of BMO Field as a soccer stadium is the very large percentage of people that can arrive and leave via public transit.......the sort of percentages that many (me included) would have thought a subway would be necessary for.

The GO is a great solution, but you need to pay attention to the times or you'll be left literally stranded in no-mans land (then again, this is during a Saturday - so the times and frequency for the GO will vary during the week). There is absolute no walkability in this area and that is one of the main issues. With the Oxford proposal, it's perfectly located so you can walk anywhere you want (shops, restaurants, theatres - you name it).

As I said, there is lots to walk to now......but I think the MGM/Cadillac proposal is all about building more amenties/things to do onsite......that is likely the real reason Dori Segal spoke out against the casino at the Ex........with all that additional amenity convenience south of the tracks, people will find it less needed to wander north of the tracks into the Liberty Village retail/resto space he has created.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I barely comment in casino threads anymore because all of these proposals are dead in the water. There will be no casino.

The social and symbolic case against casinos is valid and a justifiable argument to block these kinds of developments. But from a business perspective I can't really accept the premise that a casino would not be economically benefitial and provide synergy with existing tourist and entertainment functions either at the EX or the metro convention centre location. Even if only 10% of patrons are foreign tourists, that's still 100% you don't have now. Even if 90% of patrons are from the GTA or Southern Ontario, that's still 100% patrons that currently do not exist. The concept that Casino related entertainment will cannibalize existing entertainment venues etc. and therefore represents a threat is honestly ridiculous and says more about our insecurity and lack of self-esteem than anything else. Don't worry, Toronto will survive and thrive if we have a casino or don't have a casino. The casino issue matters because it's a wedge issue. But like other wedge issues before it once the decision yay or nay is made everyone will go back to going on about their business as usual.

 

[Blovertis]

I barely comment in casino threads anymore because all of these proposals are dead in the water. There will be no casino.

You're right in the short term. The anti-commerce and and anti-development types have made this their cause celebre and they will prevail, especially when the casino's main defenders at this moment are the mouth-breathing Fords.

But in ten years, after we've seen pie-in-sky redevelopment plans for Ontario Place come to nothing and witnessed a further decade in the long slow decline of the CNE, I suspect we'll be reinventing the wheel and looking at a plan very similar to this one.

 

[DavidJamesTO]

Missing, of course, from your list is the TTC.....the loop for the Bathurst and QQ lines is right there and the same short stroll I mentioned above takes you to the King car at Atlantic.

And interestingly the north side doors at Ricoh were installed about a century before the loop in anticipation of transit service to that spot. At least somebody was thinking ahead.

I worked in LV for a year and I saw more people coming from the streetcar than the GO train at Exhibition station. It's not worth the cost of a GO ticket to travel one station when you can just stay on the TTC.