Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

[Northern Light]

No photos from within the project area today, but a related one.............plants grown from very old seedbank, currently in their re-located spot.

Transplant was very successful. Obviously everything looks dead for winter, but these are perennial and will be back in spring.

 

[Northern Light]

Article in The Star today (not paywalled at time of posting) discussing the fundraising needs for the proposed destination playground (50M) and whether any lead donors will come forward.

Civic-minded donors had a hand in building Toronto. Will they help build a $50-million playground on its waterfront?

Privileged Torontonians can assist in creating civic jewels, or give towards work that chips away at Toronto’s growing income and opportunity gap.

www.thestar.com

Nothing overly substantive that's specific to this project..........but as that's the headline item of discussion, I placed it here.

Of note to me were a couple of other items buried in the piece:

Interesting it look so long for the name to become public. I have to say, the donation offer, to my understanding, was the largest Parks had ever seen, how that got muddled is still a mystery to me.

****

Also of note:

Be interesting to see this one as well.

 

[taal]

That's interesting, a very legitimate concern as well.

 

[Deadpool X]

Both Portlands and Quayside are going to add to the traffic, nevermind the fact that the green space they’re adding will be a destination- and if you’re familiar with the Distillery, you’ll know that regular transit and no parking is not enough of a deterrent for folks from the 905 showing up in their cars.

I live in the centre of Mississauga, the city with possibly the best transit in 905 area. From my home, right now, it would take 35 minutes to drive to Distillery District and 1 hour and 38 minutes using transit (that's 3 times more and includes minimum 3 vehicle changes). Even when I am fortunate to live less than 100 meters from a bus stop. So can you really blame 905 folks?

I haven't even brought issues like safety (people using transit getting attacked or worse, killed), personal space, weather, missed transit connections, full buses not stopping, fare integration, unreliable schedules, subway breakdowns, limited hours of transit, etc into the picture yet. I am just comparing journey time and that itself is 3 times of driving.

I live 10 minute drive from Milton line. The trains run only in peak direction and only on weekdays for a line that's 3rd busiest on the GO network. The only time I will be visiting Distillery District is weekday evenings or weekends when GO train is just not available. And yeah, even if GO were available, right now it would take a minimum of 21 minutes by transit (not including waiting time) from Union to Distillery District. Just 6 minutes faster than walking! If you are wondering, it would take a car 8 minutes to cover that distance right now. (On weekdays, when GO is running, it would still take me 1 hour 23 minutes using GO even if that time doesn't suit me).

I prefer using transit over driving for commuting or visiting downtown but we are far from having a decent transit and having a genuine reason to blame 905 people for driving.

 

[Northern Light]

I live in the centre of Mississauga, the city with possibly the best transit in 905 area. From my home, right now, it would take 35 minutes to drive to Distillery District and 1 hour and 38 minutes using transit (that's 3 times more and includes minimum 3 vehicle changes). Even when I am fortunate to live less than 100 meters from a bus stop. So can you really blame 905 folks?

I haven't even brought issues like safety (people using transit getting attacked or worse, killed), personal space, weather, missed transit connections, full buses not stopping, fare integration, unreliable schedules, subway breakdowns, limited hours of transit, etc into the picture yet. I am just comparing journey time and that itself is 3 times of driving.

I live 10 minute drive from Milton line. The trains run only in peak direction and only on weekdays for a line that's 3rd busiest on the GO network. The only time I will be visiting Distillery District is weekday evenings or weekends when GO train is just not available. And yeah, even if GO were available, right now it would take a minimum of 21 minutes by transit (not including waiting time) from Union to Distillery District. Just 6 minutes faster than walking! If you are wondering, it would take a car 8 minutes to cover that distance right now. (On weekdays, when GO is running, it would still take me 1 hour 23 minutes using GO even if that time doesn't suit me).

I prefer using transit over driving for commuting or visiting downtown but we are far from having a decent transit and having a genuine reason to blame 905 people for driving.

I don't wish to take issue w/your post overall.

I agree 'blaming people' is generally not a constructive way to have a discussion.

I also concur that the trip times you chose to use certainly don't seem competitive w/the car and certainly, no one would dispute that there is room for improvement in suburban transit.

That said, your trip time seemed high to me. Given what I know of your location (from what you posted), I curiously typed in an MCC address into GO's Trip Planner.

I think its worth noting what came up:

That, at first blush, is at least a bit more competitive than the times you stated; though I concede you may be further than walking distance to Cooksville Station which would affect the above.

*obviously, I didn't include the last leg to distillery.

So, TTC says 19M from the time you board at King and Bay and includes the walk down to Distillery. Google says 8M walk Toronto Union to King and Bay.

So all in we're at 1hr 17.

Still not great, but not as bad as it first appears.

The subsequent departure, btw was listed as 11M later, and then 27M later.


***

Aside, the Trip Planner produces some very strange routing options that border on inexplicable contortion.

 

[Ward8]

I don't disagree with much of your post. Infrastructure is still extremely car centric in the wider GTA and people need to make reasonable trips to meet their short term needs while rapid transit is expanded.

I haven't even brought issues like safety (people using transit getting attacked or worse, killed)

That said, Transit, even with the recent uptick in crime, is orders of magnitude safer than driving. I don't have the stats handy for Canada, but driving is the leading cause of death for americans under the age of 55.

 

[Deadpool X]

I don't wish to take issue w/your post overall.

I agree 'blaming people' is generally not a constructive way to have a discussion.

I also concur that the trip times you chose to use certainly don't seem competitive w/the car and certainly, no one would dispute that there is room for improvement in suburban transit.

That said, your trip time seemed high to me. Given what I know of your location (from what you posted), I curiously typed in an MCC address into GO's Trip Planner.

I think its worth noting what came up:

View attachment 447982

That, at first blush, is at least a bit more competitive than the times you stated; though I concede you may be further than walking distance to Cooksville Station which would affect the above.

The subsequent departure, btw was listed as 11M later, and then 27M later.

I live at Hurontario and Eglinton. That's the geographical centre of Mississauga. About 2 km north of the commercial centre of Mississauga (MCC).

It's 11 min drive to Cooksville GO station and 23 minutes by transit . So you may want to add 23 minutes + 5 min of wait for the bus + 10 minutes of buffer (because if the trains/buses are departing with 20-30 frequency, I can't plan to show up 2 minutes before the departure time like I would do for a subway).

Secondly, the trip time I mentioned was for Distillery District, not Union station. That would include 3-4 min walking out of Union, a few minutes of waiting time and 21 min of transit.

So the total time is approx - 23 min + 5 min + 10 min + 50 min + 3 min + 3 min + 21 min. (And knowing how bad the situation can get at Union bus terminal, we may need to add a lot more time).

 

[Deadpool X]

I don't disagree with much of your post. Infrastructure is still extremely car centric in the wider GTA and people need to make reasonable trips to meet their short term needs while rapid transit is expanded.

That said, Transit, even with the recent uptick in crime, is orders of magnitude safer than driving. I don't have the stats handy for Canada, but driving is the leading cause of death for americans under the age of 55.

Sometimes, a number in absolute terms means nothing. If I say City A witnesses 1 murder every day and City B sees 10 murders every day, it may sound like City B is more dangerous. But if I add that City A has a population of ten thousand and City B has a population of ten million, then suddenly City B becomes 100 times safer.

Americans love their cars. Even in big cities with a few notable exceptions, majority of the people drive. And of course in smaller cities, towns and rural areas, everyone drives. So if the share of transit ridership is less than 5% of country's share, then obviously the comparison is wrong. You may want to compare in terms of passenger-km to make the right comparison.

Also, add the phycological aspect to that. When you are driving, your safety depends a lot on you (and others too). But when you are using the transit, you don't have as much control over your safety. I haven't been attacked in TTC yet but I have seen so many people getting verbally attacked by mentally ill people that I am scared of using transit, especially in downtown (I am not even going by the news I hear about people getting stabbed or pushed onto the tracks). I used to commute with TTC every day when I lived in North York pre-covid but things have gone for worse now.

 

[Northern Light]

I live at Hurontario and Eglinton. That's the geographical centre of Mississauga. About 2 km north of the commercial centre of Mississauga (MCC).

It's 11 min drive to Cooksville GO station and 23 minutes by transit . So you may want to add 23 minutes + 5 min of wait for the bus + 10 minutes of buffer (because if the trains/buses are departing with 20-30 frequency, I can't plan to show up 2 minutes before the departure time like I would do for a subway).

Secondly, the trip time I mentioned was for Distillery District, not Union station. That would include 3-4 min walking out of Union, a few minutes of waiting time and 21 min of transit.

So the total time is approx - 23 min + 5 min + 10 min + 50 min + 3 min + 3 min + 21 min. (And knowing how bad the situation can get at Union bus terminal, we may need to add a lot more time).

I did edit for the Distillery District. I hit post before realizing that the Trip Planner hadn't finished the thought I asked for, LOL.

Then when trying to string together a trip, I found the results so peculiar (one option had you taking GO LSW then getting off at Exhibition and walking Spadina to the take the 510...... LOL

So it took me some sorting.

Using the info you posted above, my 1 hr 17 all-in time would grow to 1hr28 if you drove to Cooksville GO; and 1hr 40 if you took transit (no added buffer). Admittedly, not a competitive experience as things stand.

 

[Northern Light]

Sometimes, a number in absolute terms means nothing. If I say City A witnesses 1 murder every day and City B sees 10 murders every day, it may sound like City B is more dangerous. But if I add that City A has a population of ten thousand and City B has a population of ten million, then suddenly City B becomes 100 times safer.

Americans love their cars. Even in big cities with a few notable exceptions, majority of the people drive. And of course in smaller cities, towns and rural areas, everyone drives. So if the share of transit ridership is less than 5% of country's share, then obviously the comparison is wrong. You may want to compare in terms of passenger-km to make the right comparison.

Certainly one wants to compare 'rates' of death, as opposed to absolute totals.

A quick glance at Toronto traffic fatalities through 2020:

So 5 drivers, I believe (but am not certain) that 'other' is passengers. So 15 deaths for those riding in cars.

So far as I can discern, excepting people having heart attacks and the like, the typical TTC number is closer to 1 or 0, with the TTC having a modal share close to 40% in the City in the period in question.

But I could stand to be corrected on that.

Also, add the phycological aspect to that. When you are driving, your safety depends a lot on you (and others too). But when you are using the transit, you don't have as much control over your safety. I haven't been attacked in TTC yet but I have seen so many people getting verbally attacked by mentally ill people that I am scared of using transit, especially in downtown (I am not even going by the news I hear about people getting stabbed or pushed onto the tracks). I used to commute with TTC every day when I lived in North York pre-covid but things have gone for worse now.

I have to confess, as a car owner and driver, I still take TTC 3-4 times per week and have difficulty grasping that level of fear (no insult intended).

Knock wood and all that, but not only can I can I say I haven't been attacked on the TTC in 37+ years ( I was hit once as a child); I can also say I have yet to witness a violent attack ( and may it remain so)

I do appreciate that these incidents are tragic and horrible; and their randomness in some cases can be very unsettling and that's entirely understandable. Yet, the overall liklihood of serious violence affecting someone taking transit in Toronto remains, for now, quite low.

That said, action should be taken to address mental illness, homelessness and problem riders in the near term, both as a gesture of kindness for those that need help and as a reassurance to those with fears.

 

[Deadpool X]

Using the info you posted above, my 1 hr 17 all-in time would grow to 1hr28 if you drove to Cooksville GO; and 1hr 40 if you took transit (no added buffer). Admittedly, not a competitive experience as things stand.

I appreciate you trying to understand the gap between driving and using transit for suburban people (which is majority of GTA).

Without further digressing the thread, one point I would like to make is that one has to live in the 905 area to understand why they drive more than they should. Otherwise passing judgement on them is not fair. We haven't even talked about the outer 905 areas yet which are the only affordable places left for so many new homebuyers.

 

[Deadpool X]

Certainly one wants to compare 'rates' of death, as opposed to absolute totals.

A quick glance at Toronto traffic fatalities through 2020:

View attachment 447984

So 5 drivers, I believe (but am not certain) that 'other' is passengers. So 15 deaths for those riding in cars.

So far as I can discern, excepting people having heart attacks and the like, the typical TTC number is closer to 1 or 0, with the TTC having a modal share close to 40% in the City in the period in question.

But I could stand to be corrected on that.



I have to confess, as a car owner and driver, I still take TTC 3-4 times per week and have difficult grasping that level of fear (no insult intended).

Knock wood and all that, but not only can I can I say I haven't been attacked on the TTC in 37+ years ( I was hit once as a child); I can also say I have yet to witness a violent attack ( and may it remain so)

I do appreciate that these incidents are tragic and horrible; and their randomness in some cases can be very unsettling and that's entirely understandable. Yet, the overall liklihood of serious violence affecting someone taking transit in Toronto remains, for now, quite low.

That said, action should be taken to address mental illness, homelessness and problem riders in the near term, both as a gesture of kindness for those that need help and as a reassurance to those with fears.

I would not assume 10 as passengers until we are sure about it. Also, we haven't considered the distance travelled. A 40 km car ride is not the same as 2 km bus ride. Is TTC counting a person riding a subway, a bus and then a streetcar multiple times? Are we including the people who got hit by a bus trying to use transit (for example crossing the road to catch their bus).

What if include the number of people who get verbally attacked or physically assaulted in transit? That would be a substantial number, while for drivers that number would be close to 0.

But I do agree with having action taken for homeless and mentally ill, not just for transit rider but people in downtown in general.

 

[Northern Light]

I'll refrain from going further than the OTP rabbit hole at this point, in thread. No knock on anyone, I just think we need to return the thread to its core topic.

 

[DSC]

I did edit for the Distillery District. I hit post before realizing that the Trip Planner hadn't finished the thought I asked for, LOL.

Then when trying to string together a trip, I found the results so peculiar (one option had you taking GO LSW then getting off at Exhibition and walking Spadina to the take the 510...... LOL

So it took me some sorting.

Using the info you posted above, my 1 hr 17 all-in time would grow to 1hr28 if you drove to Cooksville GO; and 1hr 40 if you took transit (no added buffer). Admittedly, not a competitive experience as things stand.

OK, OK guys! I doubt anyone here disagrees that cars are often FAR faster than transit and I suspect most of us around here sometimes exaggerate a bit to try to favour the hobby horse we are riding that (or every) day. If there is any point to this rabbit hole it is that sometimes having a vehicle is much faster and the lack of route management (and funding) of our transit systems tends to make them less competitive than they could or should be!

 

[evandyk]

Yeah, there's no question that if you live in the middle of Mississauga, an 11 minute drive from a Go train station that doesn't offer all day service, it's going to be a pain to get downtown by transit and you are mostly going to choose to drive everywhere. That's why we need to (a) build more transit; and (b) stop building houses far from any reasonable transit options.