Toronto Lower Don Lands Redevelopment | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

GenerationW said:
Probably true, but that would be a risk for Ford. The Feds and the Province would be putting up most of the money, and that would take some of the decision making out of Ford's hands, which means the stadium wouldn't necessarily end up being an NFL-type stadium (and I bet it wouldn't be).

By going it alone, it's almost certain Ottawa and Queen's Park would contribute nothing to a stand-alone NFL stadium, which means there would have to be someone (and it can't be a corporation under NFL bylaws) willing to spend as much as $2 billion for the stadium and the team.
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theterribleone said:
A corporations cannot own the team. They can contribute to building the stadium. The city of Arden Hills, MN is a corporation.

Why don't you stop "betting" and start providing proof for how the Feds or Prov would have any say in that. And even then, it can be remodeled.
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There is also the example of AEG....they (a sports and facility management firm along the same lines as MLSE) are looking to build a new stadium in Los Angeles in the hopes of attracting a (or even 2) teams there. NFL bylaws only cover team ownership not stadium ownership. (EDITORIAL NOTE: if AEG builds a stadium in LA and turns out they are the only ones interested in owning a team there....watch for speedy amendement of the ownership bylaws.....AEG is not the sort of owner that bylaws were designed to keep out of the league).
 
The majority of Torontonians don't care about the NFL. There is no NFL or football culture in our city/region. Growing up, I've had some friends who liked certain NFL teams or were casual followers of the league but most people are indifferent towards whether or not Toronto gets an NFL team. The only sport that Torontonians and Canadians are die hard about is hockey. Football would rank second tier with the likes of basketball, baseball, soccer, or even lower for some ethnic groups. It's a very small group of people that actually care about getting an NFL team, and their voice suddenly matters because the Ford Brothers are making this a big deal.
 
StCatharinesCitizen said:
An Olympic games in Toronto is essential to gaining a new stadium whether it be in the portlands or not. I believe that the portlands would be an excellent location and it provides the opportunity for an iconic multi-use facility. It could incorporate more than just a sports venue and really add to the aestheic appeal of our waterfront. The problem is that most Olympic stadiums today are built half permanent, half temporary. This would mean that it would most likely not fit the bill for an NFL class stadium. However, if the government were to find it economically viable to build a large permanent stadium, it could turn out great!
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The trend towards partially permanent/temporary stadiums is driven mostly by post games economics. The logic goes something like this....why build a $1B 100,000 seat stadium that has no economic use after the games if you can build a $600 million stadium and spend $50 million after the games having it turned into a 50,000 seater after the game that has, either, a tenant or a purchaser with an economic use after the games.

Turner Field in Atlanta....that worked, the city needed a new baseball stadium, built a stadium for the Olympics and converted it downwards after and ended up with functional baseball stadium that is used.

In England, the City of Manchester stadium from the Commonwealth Games and the Olympic Stadium for London's 2012 end up being soccer stadiums (the first one totally converted...jury still out on the second one as they promised a track and field legacy).

Point is there is a model that says a Toronto Olympics could see a $1 billion (ish) stadium built and then converted and sold to an NFL owner for (just throwing a number out) $400 million. Toronto's Olympics end up costing less than they could have....and the NFL ownership gets a stadium for less than the numbers thrown around. That way the Toronto NFL guys get a subsidy to the cost of their stadium that is similar to the amount a US city gets but it does not come via a direct "city/province writes a cheque to subsidize pro stadium" kind of approach.....it is more of an "olympics subsidize pro football stadium" sort of deal.
 
theterribleone said:
A corporations cannot own the team. They can contribute to building the stadium. The city of Arden Hills, MN is a corporation.

Why don't you stop "betting" and start providing proof for how the Feds or Prov would have any say in that. And even then, it can be remodeled.
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It's pretty obvious why they might -- they'd be putting up a big chunk of the money for a Toronto Olympic Games, and would therefore be within their rights to demand certain conditions.

TOareaFan said:
Point is there is a model that says a Toronto Olympics could see a $1 billion (ish) stadium built and then converted and sold to an NFL owner for (just throwing a number out) $400 million. Toronto's Olympics end up costing less than they could have....and the NFL ownership gets a stadium for less than the numbers thrown around. That way the Toronto NFL guys get a subsidy to the cost of their stadium that is similar to the amount a US city gets but it does not come via a direct "city/province writes a cheque to subsidize pro stadium" kind of approach.....it is more of an "olympics subsidize pro football stadium" sort of deal.
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I could see that as a possibility if an NFL team was already here (suppose the Bills moved here permanently somehow, playing at the Dome presumably) by the time an Olympics bid was won. But it would be a much tougher sell without an NFL team, especially since Toronto has an existing football team with a 130 year history which would love to get out of the oppressive shadow of Rogers and move into a new stadium as the prime tenant. There's an economic argument in favour of the Argos -- leaving a permanent 40,000 seat stadium after the Games instead of one with 70-80,000 seats -- and, perhaps more important, a patriotic one (and if nothing else, the Olympics invoke patriotism) -- building a stadium for a team and a league that are Canadian institutions instead of for a team that doesn't even exist (and may never). With Federal and Provincial money helping to pay for a new stadium, there is no chance a proposal to satisfy NFL dreamers in Toronto would fly across the country. And it should be added that the owner of the Argos is a member of the Senate, and he is not without influence.

So it seems to me that the Olympics are a dead issue as long as Ford is mayor, and he'll try to piggyback a new stadium as part of some larger development, sort of like his Sheppard subway proposal. I wouldn't bet on either, but I'll bet on Sheppard way before a stadium.
 
Travis said:
The majority of Torontonians don't care about the NFL. There is no NFL or football culture in our city/region. Growing up, I've had some friends who liked certain NFL teams or were casual followers of the league but most people are indifferent towards whether or not Toronto gets an NFL team. The only sport that Torontonians and Canadians are die hard about is hockey. Football would rank second tier with the likes of basketball, baseball, soccer, or even lower for some ethnic groups. It's a very small group of people that actually care about getting an NFL team, and their voice suddenly matters because the Ford Brothers are making this a big deal.
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Yes, the majority of Torontonians don't really care about the NFL. However the majority of Torontonians don't care about hockey either, and yet the Leafs are thriving. Such is the benefit of living in a big city with a large population.

As has been discussed many times, an NFL team in Toronto would be a huge success... that isn't the issue here. The issue is whether or not we are getting one.
 
Travis said:
The majority of Torontonians don't care about the NFL. There is no NFL or football culture in our city/region. Growing up, I've had some friends who liked certain NFL teams or were casual followers of the league but most people are indifferent towards whether or not Toronto gets an NFL team. The only sport that Torontonians and Canadians are die hard about is hockey. Football would rank second tier with the likes of basketball, baseball, soccer, or even lower for some ethnic groups. It's a very small group of people that actually care about getting an NFL team, and their voice suddenly matters because the Ford Brothers are making this a big deal.
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This is true. Which is why people have already said the NFL would be number 2 or 3 in town.
 
GenerationW said:
It's pretty obvious why they might -- they'd be putting up a big chunk of the money for a Toronto Olympic Games, and would therefore be within their rights to demand certain conditions.
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This is an Ontario controlled Conservative Government. Who else is the west going to vote for without putting the Liberals back in power? And why would Harper be like that on a stadium.

The Argos don't make money. They didn't get good attendance when they were winning either. And even if they were, they would be looking for a suburban stadium(Did the York and U of t Projects just disappear from you mind?) And the Argos would not sell out 40k anyway. It would need to be 25-30 at MOST. The Argos will get their own stadium at this point in a outer borough.


And then you bring the patriotism argument, which is meaningless in a discussion of money. The CFL is of lesser skill and some of us don't want to watch that. Just like Winnipeg is tired of the AHL and wants the NHL. Should they be happy just because it's hockey? No. And I would not want that for them.

I feel there is no patriotic argument. You want there to be one. After you told me you are not trying to force anybody to watch the CFL. Make up your mind, you cannot invoke the CFL at will when you feel like it.
 
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And another thing GenW

The Roughriders were about to blow 450 million on a stadium. Federal Tax Money. A CFL stadium. That is just as much a boondoggle as a Toronto NFL Stadium. It got stopped.

You are saying that you want the Argos to get a 40k from a potential Olympic effort when their owner, the same guy who owns the BC lions as already said he does not want to move from the Rogers Centre.

Let's face facts: You are a CFL fan trying to Masquerade as fair and balanced when you are not. You probably support the Blue Jays and then turn around and be against this, which despite all your strawman arguments makes you a hypocrite. The western canadians disrespect us all the time, regardless of whether we embrace the CFL or not, so it won't matter. Who else are they going to vote for. Tell me. I want to know their alternative to Harper. The truth is you do not hear that much buzz around it in general in the Toronto Area, whether that is due to marketing I don't know but that's how I see it. You want to tell me there is a difference between the CFL and AHL? Fine, except for the fact a) the CFL was about to die 15 years ago, the AHL was not and b) that would make you a liar.
 
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Automation Gallery said:
Actually i think the portlands is where it makes the most sense for a large stadium. With all that vacant land down there they wont be stepping on anybody's toes.
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Have you ever heard of 'Toronto Waterfront' or stumbled upon any of their planning documents? Do you have any idea what you are spouting on about? Or are the Port Lands just another "chessy" area to you?
 
neubilder said:
Have you ever heard of 'Toronto Waterfront' or stumbled upon any of their planning documents? Do you have any idea what you are spouting on about? Or are the Port Lands just another "chessy" area to you?
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No i have never heard of 'Toronto Waterfront'... unless your specifying the 46 kilometre span between the mouth of Etobicoke Creek in the west, and the Rouge River in the east. Yeah its a nice bike ride.:)
But i have heard of Waterfront Toronto....Buddy stop behaving like a chessy and EARN your grades child !

You let me know if it states anywhere in the so called waterfront planning documents that a stadium can not be built into the mix.
http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/explore_projects2/port_lands
 
Automation Gallery said:
No i have never heard of 'Toronto Waterfront'... unless your specifying the 46 kilometre span between the mouth of Etobicoke Creek in the west, and the Rouge River in the east. Yeah its a nice bike ride.:)
But i have heard of Waterfront Toronto....Buddy stop behaving like a chessy and EARN your grades child !

You let me know if it states anywhere in the so called waterfront planning documents that a stadium can not be built into the mix.
http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/explore_projects2/port_lands
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Right there on page 1: "We will not build a silly-ass stadium for NFL fanboys with large gobs of government money, as this would be considered foie gras gravy, not just the regular kind of gravy."

Could all the NFL fanboys please move to Buffalo, help them keep their team in place when the owner dies, and quit with the 'let's spend someone else's money so I can not afford a ticket in Toronto, instead of not being able to afford a ticket in Buffalo'?
 
There is no transit at any of the possible eastern waterfront sites, and it would add hundreds of millions, if not a billion, to put in a subway there (a subway which would be completely unconnected to other major population centres in the city).
 
theterribleone said:
And why would Harper be like that on a stadium.
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Why wouldn't he be like that?

The Argos don't make money. They didn't get good attendance when they were winning either. And even if they were, they would be looking for a suburban stadium(Did the York and U of t Projects just disappear from you mind?) And the Argos would not sell out 40k anyway. It would need to be 25-30 at MOST. The Argos will get their own stadium at this point in a outer borough.
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The Argos don't lose much money either, and could be no worse than a break-even proposition after the next TV deal. And if the price was free, I'm sure the Argos could easily live with being the prime tenant in a stadium on the waterfront, which is where their current stadium is, and where their previous stadium was.


And then you bring the patriotism argument, which is meaningless in a discussion of money. The CFL is of lesser skill and some of us don't want to watch that. Just like Winnipeg is tired of the AHL and wants the NHL. Should they be happy just because it's hockey? No. And I would not want that for them.

I feel there is no patriotic argument. You want there to be one. After you told me you are not trying to force anybody to watch the CFL. Make up your mind, you cannot invoke the CFL at will when you feel like it.
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We're talking about a potential Olympics, and an Olympics in any country is an exercise in nation-building, which by definition involves patriotism -- did you miss Vancouver? Whether you like it or not, the CFL has been a seamless fit with that model. Edmonton, Vancouver, Hamilton, Montreal and Winnipeg have all received new or upgraded stadiums by way of Olympic, Pan-Am or Empire/Commonwealth Games.

Just because you like football but have conniption fits when the word "Canadian" gets put in front of "football", that's your problem. I can't help it if you live in Canada but also hate Canada (especially the West apparently) and certain Canadian sports institutions. That's a complex you'll have to overcome on your own. I'm not qualified to counsel rabid Toronto NFL marks, most of whom, by the way, actually live outside the City of Toronto.

Is someone actually putting a gun to your head and personally making you watch CFL football? Because if there is, call the cops! Otherwise, you are free to change the channel.

Again, I was speculating on what might happen in the event Toronto got the Olympics, and I am able to put aside my personal preferences, Clearly you can't.


theterribleone said:
The Roughriders were about to blow 450 million on a stadium. Federal Tax Money. A CFL stadium. That is just as much a boondoggle as a Toronto NFL Stadium. It got stopped.
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So you're saying the Feds were this close to giving them money? Really?? But at least that comment isn't as bad as your asinine claim that the Saints came very close to coming to Toronto in 1994.

For the record, there was speculation whether Ottawa would contribute to a future Regina football stadium (and a hockey arena in Quebec City), but it has never come close to reality.

You are saying that you want the Argos to get a 40k from a potential Olympic effort when their owner, the same guy who owns the BC lions as already said he does not want to move from the Rogers Centre.
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Why would he say anything right now about an Olympics bid that doesn't even exist, and probably won't as long as Ford is Mayor? He's dealing with reality, not speculation, and he was very wise to say that his team will stay in the Dome for the immediate future.

Let's face facts: You are a CFL fan trying to Masquerade as fair and balanced when you are not. You probably support the Blue Jays and then turn around and be against this, which despite all your strawman arguments makes you a hypocrite. The western canadians disrespect us all the time, regardless of whether we embrace the CFL or not, so it won't matter. Who else are they going to vote for. Tell me. I want to know their alternative to Harper. The truth is you do not hear that much buzz around it in general in the Toronto Area, whether that is due to marketing I don't know but that's how I see it. You want to tell me there is a difference between the CFL and AHL? Fine, except for the fact a) the CFL was about to die 15 years ago, the AHL was not and b) that would make you a liar.
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Unlike you, I like the CFL, NFL, NCAA, CIS, etc. because I like football. I don't like football because I like the NFL. Some people actually have an appreciation of the sport, and aren't easy marks who only follow what gets the most hype.

As for the rest, you are ranting like a petulant child again.

Riverdale Rink Rat said:
Could all the NFL fanboys please move to Buffalo, help them keep their team in place when the owner dies, and quit with the 'let's spend someone else's money so I can not afford a ticket in Toronto, instead of not being able to afford a ticket in Buffalo'?
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NFL tickets are actually a lot cheaper in Buffalo.
 
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