Toronto Jane and Finch Mall Redevelopment | 156.8m | 47s | Brad-Jay | BDP Quadrangle

To give the park a more usable layout, would it make sense to reroute the road (blue arrow) and extend the park over the road (red x):

EDIT I see folks already had this idea above.

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I dont know why developers have this fetish of dividing useful park space with a road bisecting 2 or more major pieces of green space. Time and time again when there's some kind of master plan released, there is this addiction (or fetish if you'd like a hotter take) to doing this and it's beyond frustrating.
 
I dont know why developers have this fetish of dividing useful park space with a road bisecting 2 or more major pieces of green space. Time and time again when there's some kind of master plan released, there is this addiction (or fetish if you'd like a hotter take) to doing this and it's beyond frustrating.

I agree, though I see 2 reasons they may have made this choice. The first is linking up to an existing road, in this case Top Cliff Avenue.

It's a thing to aim to link up w/the existing road grid; I get that, though I don't think this particular choice makes great sense or produces any material benefit. The way in which they've chosen to organize the site is not what I would have done.

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The other thing if phasing, you don't need the road for phasing, but I get the idea that you need to deliver some park in the first phase, but don't want to deliver all of it (the master plan size) all at once. That's money/land out the door upfront. Frankly, I think it's a great idea to do it all at once, upfront, as that makes delivery more cost-efficient and it's great marketing for the later phases; but I understand the cheapskate mentality even if I disagree with it.
Once you divide delivery of the park into two separate parcels done at different times, it makes the idea of the road seem less problematic than it would if you did the whole thing at once.

I would have preferred to see something like the below (Which would require buying out some of the homes across from the mall)

Jane Finch Mall Alternative layout.png


I have shown a different road alignment for Driftwood here, and a different connection to Top Cliff Road. Obviously this requires land acquisition by the developer and/or the City.

But it achieves, potentially, some interesting benefits. I offer above, 2 alternative park block options, both about double what is currently bring proposed. To be clear, I don't expect the developer to eat this cost;
I expect the City to eat anything that is not justified at the current pro-rata of 15% park, albeit, potentially on a larger site.

If the developer used the additional lands (I'm suggesting acquiring 1.2ha of additional land south of Finch) they would nominally have to provide 1.2ha of park space (as opposed to 0.8/1 depending on the existing road dividing the 2 parks), the City would be on the hook for the balance of a 2ha park at fair market value for the land.

My shift in alignment, if you shift the park to the A block, would produce enough land for at least 3 more towers, that's some real $$$.

I get that the developer looks only at their own site; but that's just not the way we should plan, in my judgment.

The new alignment north of Finch could also create room for either of a significant new residential building, creating a more vital urban fabric, or a park on the north side of Finch if desired. (or probably both if you just want a small playground.).
 
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I agree, though I see 2 reasons they may have made this choice. The first is linking up to an existing road, in this case Top Cliff Avenue.

It's a thing to aim to link up w/the existing road grid; I get that, though I don't think this particular choice makes great sense or produces any material benefit. The way in which they've chosen to organize the site is not what I would have done.

****

The other thing if phasing, you don't need the road for phasing, but I get the idea that you need to deliver some park in the first phase, but don't want to deliver all of it (the master plan size) all at once. That's money/land out the door upfront. Frankly, I think it's a great idea to do it all at once, upfront, as that makes delivery more cost-efficient and it's great marketing for the later phases; but I understand the cheapskate mentality even if I disagree with it.
Once you divide delivery of the park into two separate parcels done at different times, it makes the idea of the road seem less problematic than it would if you did the whole thing at once.
The link to Topcliff is certainly the driver in the road dividing the two parks in this case but the question is, is it really needed?

I'm definitely in agreement that I dont think the road would produce any real material benefit and in my view, it's just there for convenience.
 
I'm not really convinced the new Street A or Street B intersections with Jane are really needed. The Street A connection with Finch might make sense if the Street D extension of Top Flight through the park block is scrapped. These connections with Jane/Finch can be pedestrian/cyclist plazas with culdesac access to the underground parking of the towers. Perhaps emergency vehicle access only?


The other thing that strikes me is that 4,700 sqm of retail is pretty skimpy. Barely enough for a medium sized grocery store.
 
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The precise street layout notwithstanding, I think this plan should be applauded for completely replacing the mall and re-integrating the site into wider the street grid. A lot of the other mall redevelopments (STC for example) that plan to keep the mall are missing an opportunity to remake these communities into real urban neighbourhoods. Condos are preferable to parking lots, but I'm concerned that some of the planned mall redevelopments won't result in good walkable places and will remain car dependent.
 
The precise street layout notwithstanding, I think this plan should be applauded for completely replacing the mall and re-integrating the site into wider the street grid. A lot of the other mall redevelopments (STC for example) that plan to keep the mall are missing an opportunity to remake these communities into real urban neighbourhoods. Condos are preferable to parking lots, but I'm concerned that some of the planned mall redevelopments won't result in good walkable places and will remain car dependent.
I agree. I find the proposals that just plunk condo towers in the mall parking lot to be bizarre. It is malpractice to not even plan for how the mall itself would be redeveloped when master planning hundreds of millions to billions of dollars of development around it.
 
It's a lot easier to develop a redevelopment plan for a failed mall than it is for a highly productive one that you want to keep highly productive. I 100% agree with what has been said. I don't think it's a fair comparison.

50 storeys at Jane and Finch? I know these have become commonplace heights all across suburban Toronto but what sort of city are we building here. Is more density, a better connected street grid and some commercial space going to prevent another San Ramanoway in 40 years?
 
The other thing that strikes me is that 4,700 sqm of retail is pretty skimpy. Barely enough for a medium sized grocery store.

I certainly agree there could be more retail, but your estimation of a typical new supermarket build skews a bit high.

Most new urban stores going in are at or below 30,000ft2; the largest I can think of in the last few years is 48,000ft2. (with one exception noted below)

Excluding warehouse formats, only Loblaws ever consistently built over 50,000ft2 in the GTA; but where it did so, it's formats including grocery, pharmacy, Joe Fresh, and dry cleaning. Even then, I don't expect to see stores that big again, for the most part.

* Maple Leaf Gardens is a notable exception to the size rule; though, I believe their floor plate includes the 2nd floor LCBO and Joe Fresh - 85,000ft2.

Edit to add; for reference, the current Freshco at the mall is just over 40,000ft2
 
The retail and restaurant at West Block is ~100K. The Loblaws alone is 50K. There's also a Shoppers, Joe Fresh, LCBO, etc. in that complex.

Right, but that's the high end of size for the most part, excluding the MLG outlier.

The comment (to which I responded) was that there was barely room for a mid-size supermarket with 50,000ft2.
 
Right, but that's the high end of size for the most part, excluding the MLG outlier.

The comment (to which I responded) was that there was barely room for a mid-size supermarket with 50,000ft2.
Gochya, I see that now.

If there was a desire to keep a grocer in there (and I'll be clear that I hope there is) I'd imagine in this first phase they're just filling in the parking lots at the north side so that the mall with the Fresh Co can continue to operate on the south. Demo will likely be staged, similar to Galleria, so that the owners can keep the NOI from the existing retail while they redevelop the underperforming parts. The timeline for the full build out is long (20+ years) and retail and grocers will evolve in that time so who knows where we'll be at when all is said and done in ~2050.
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20+ years!? Goodness, I hope they have a POP spot there where I can go yell at some clouds when all is said and done...
 

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