Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[howl]

Where are these pedestrians coming from? The biggest issue (from a purely Brampton perspective) with the LRT is that it touches so few in Brampton it has no chance of improving Bramptonians' access to the DT. It is, like our current GO service, purely a way of taking Bramptonians out of Brampton.

Within 500m of Main and Queen there are lots of people living and working; and there is lots of potential new development. The downtown core, being a pre-1940 street grid (e.g. pre-car), is pedestrian-oriented so people can walk easily throughout the whole core. One or two stops can serve the whole area. In addition, there is the bus terminal which both already bring hundreds of pedestrian into and out of the core every day. The GO line could bring thousands of people into the core everyday once two-way all-day service is implemented. That's why downtown Brampton has been designated a mobility hub.

The alternative presented takes the LRT through a non-pedestrian-friendly area, so if you're going to get any additional ridership from that segment the City is going to have to undertake some massive infrastructure upgrade to make the area pedestrian friendly, and you're going to have to massively increase the levels of development. I suspect the residents in the low-density neighbourhoods surrounding the alternative route aren't going to be very happy with Mr. Freeman when Mattamy and Greenpark start pressuring the City for approval of 40 storey condos all along McLaughlin Road.

So to recap the proposed alternative makes the system less effective by adding to it's length, which affects both it's service level and increases capital and operating costs; it's will require ripple infrastructure costs to the City taxpayers; and it just shifts/changes the problems away from a group of people that are complaining now to a place where people will start complaining if this proposal is taken seriously. To me it looks like a lose-lose-lose situation.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Another consideration to be looked at for the Hurontario-Main LRT is that less parking would be needed. Asphalt and concrete does not allow for the rain to be absorbed, instead it will just run off faster into low areas, rivers, and streams, causing more flooding. Turning more of the parking lots over to green space and ponds, would allow for better control of rain runoff. At least, with the LRT less space would be allocated for asphalt. Hopefully, the right-of-way will use grass so that some rain would go into the ground on that stretch, instead of into the sewers and overflowing into the rivers.

 

[TOareaFan]

Within 500m of Main and Queen there are lots of people living and working; and there is lots of potential new development. The downtown core, being a pre-1940 street grid (e.g. pre-car), is pedestrian-oriented so people can walk easily throughout the whole core. One or two stops can serve the whole area. In addition, there is the bus terminal which both already bring hundreds of pedestrian into and out of the core every day. The GO line could bring thousands of people into the core everyday once two-way all-day service is implemented. That's why downtown Brampton has been designated a mobility hub.

The alternative presented takes the LRT through a non-pedestrian-friendly area, so if you're going to get any additional ridership from that segment the City is going to have to undertake some massive infrastructure upgrade to make the area pedestrian friendly, and you're going to have to massively increase the levels of development. I suspect the residents in the low-density neighbourhoods surrounding the alternative route aren't going to be very happy with Mr. Freeman when Mattamy and Greenpark start pressuring the City for approval of 40 storey condos all along McLaughlin Road.

So to recap the proposed alternative makes the system less effective by adding to it's length, which affects both it's service level and increases capital and operating costs; it's will require ripple infrastructure costs to the City taxpayers; and it just shifts/changes the problems away from a group of people that are complaining now to a place where people will start complaining if this proposal is taken seriously. To me it looks like a lose-lose-lose situation.

You may have mistaken my comment as one in favour of the alternate route.......I am not....if this has to be built and has to be built into Brampton GO, for regional connection purposes, then, to me, the current route straight up Huorntario/Main is by far the superior route.

I just wish that the proponents would stop trying to sell the bill of goods that this, no matter what route it takes, will be transformative for Brampton. It will have very little impact (if any) on Brampton ....if it is a needed part of regional infrastructure then go ahead but the scramble to convince people in Brampton that it will be some city altering piece of infrastructure is bogus, not supported by even their own numbers and coming across as a bit desperate.

 

[howl]

You may have mistaken my comment as one in favour of the alternate route.......I am not....if this has to be built and has to be built into Brampton GO, for regional connection purposes, then, to me, the current route straight up Huorntario/Main is by far the superior route.

I just wish that the proponents would stop trying to sell the bill of goods that this, no matter what route it takes, will be transformative for Brampton. It will have very little impact (if any) on Brampton ....if it is a needed part of regional infrastructure then go ahead but the scramble to convince people in Brampton that it will be some city altering piece of infrastructure is bogus, not supported by even their own numbers and coming across as a bit desperate.

Ah, now I see.

I agree with you about the route, but I disagree with you about it not being transformative for Brampton. Along the whole line there are four places that I think will grow substantially: Cooksville, Eglinton, Steeles and downtown Brampton. If I were a land developer I would be buying land in one of those four locations right now. The growth areas that Mississauga wants - MCC and the employment lands - may happen, but I don't think they will be the primary benefactors of the LRT line. People don't seem to actually want to live or work in those areas.

I also suspect the anti-LRT movement in Brampton isn't against the LRT per se, but rather against the more urban style development it will inevitably encourage. Many of the existing businesses and residents may not survive the "transformation" in-situ.

 

[TOareaFan]

Ah, now I see.

I agree with you about the route, but I disagree with you about it not being transformative for Brampton. Along the whole line there are four places that I think will grow substantially: Cooksville, Eglinton, Steeles and downtown Brampton. If I were a land developer I would be buying land in one of those four locations right now. The growth areas that Mississauga wants - MCC and the employment lands - may happen, but I don't think they will be the primary benefactors of the LRT line. People don't seem to actually want to live or work in those areas.

I also suspect the anti-LRT movement in Brampton isn't against the LRT per se, but rather against the more urban style development it will inevitably encourage. Many of the existing businesses and residents may not survive the "transformation" in-situ.

I won't go over all of my concerns about parts of this line (that would be boring for the folks who have been involved in the past 96 pages of this thread ) but the bolded part of your statement needs response.

The segment of the corridor that you seem to say is not attractive for people to live and/or work in is a) has the highest combined density in the corridor now and b) by Metrolinx' own numbers going to see 48% of future residential population and 72% of future job growth in the corridor.

 

[howl]

I won't go over all of my concerns about parts of this line (that would be boring for the folks who have been involved in the past 96 pages of this thread ) but the bolded part of your statement needs response.

The segment of the corridor that you seem to say is not attractive for people to live and/or work in is a) has the highest combined density in the corridor now and b) by Metrolinx' own numbers going to see 48% of future residential population and 72% of future job growth in the corridor.

If those "Metrolinx" number you're talking about are the one used in the 2010 Master Plan then they are the numbers the cities would like to see with or without the LRT. The City needs to accommodate a certain number of people based on the Provincial Places-to-Grow legislation. In order to accommodate those people the cities need to build the LRT. In other words the numbers are being used to justify the LRT not the other way around. Those people are coming with or without the LRT.

If you read the 2010 Master Plan even the distribution of those people within the City was a City task, not a Metrolinx task, so while the City may have said "let's put more people here" on the assumption a BRT or LRT would be built, I expect those numbers reflect a conservative estimate for the Brampton downtown core and an aggressive estimate for the MCC.

 

[TOareaFan]

If those "Metrolinx" number you're talking about are the one used in the 2010 Master Plan then they are the numbers the cities would like to see with or without the LRT. The City needs to accommodate a certain number of people based on the Provincial Places-to-Grow legislation. In order to accommodate those people the cities need to build the LRT. In other words the numbers are being used to justify the LRT not the other way around. Those people are coming with or without the LRT.

If you read the 2010 Master Plan even the distribution of those people within the City was a City task, not a Metrolinx task, so while the City may have said "let's put more people here" on the assumption a BRT or LRT would be built, I wouldn't expect anyone to say those numbers reflect anything but a conservative estimate for the downtown core.

The numbers are from the recently released EA for this project.

 

[Solid Snake]

With the price tag for the electrification of the GO Network to an RER type of service, is there even money left for this project?

 

[innsertnamehere]

yes, this is likely priority #2 for Metrolinx at this point. There is still ~$5 billion left over after GO RER, and this is more than likely in that group of money.

Presuming no DRL (due to the relief given by the expanded GO network) and a $5 billion dollar pot of money, the list of projects I suspect will go forward are these:

Yonge extension to Steeles $1.1 billion
Hurontario LRT $1.7 billion
Dundas BRT to Hurontario: $300 million
Queen BRT: $600 milllion
Hamilton LRT: $900 Million
Waterfront East LRT: $300 million

 

[rbt]

Waterfront East LRT: $300 million

The uncovered cost is somewhat lower than that. Waterfront Toronto has some cash on hand for the project ($50M?) and can assign something like $100M from future revenues earmarked toward it.

The gap to be covered is closer to $150M.

 

[1overcosc]

If I were the Supreme God of Ontario, I would get rid of the Yonge extension to Steeles, and push that into the next round of funding post-2024. I don't see that extension being useful at all unless it's all the way to RHC which is not affordable at this point. Use the extra to pay for Durham BRT ($500m) and put that last $600M to as much of the Highway 407 transitway as can be built with $600m.

 

[dowlingm]

If I were the Supreme God of Ontario, I would get rid of the Yonge extension to Steeles, and push that into the next round of funding post-2024. I don't see that extension being useful at all unless it's all the way to RHC which is not affordable at this point. Use the extra to pay for Durham BRT ($500m) and put that last $600M to as much of the Highway 407 transitway as can be built with $600m.

But TTC wants to piggyback storage tracks onto the extension, so the City will go along with the 905ers on this one.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The 407 transitway isn't needed until the 407 starts to seriously congest, which isn't for another 2 or so decades. Right now it would only slow travel times, as the buses can simply do 120km/h on the freeway.

The extension to Steeles is needed. The stretch of Yonge from Steeles to finch is severely over capacity and the Steeles - Yonge intersection can add 5 minutes to travel times alone. It lets the TTC increase Yonge frequencies as well as they can use 2 turn back points which would let them drop the average frequency from 125 seconds to 105.

 

[gweed123]

yes, this is likely priority #2 for Metrolinx at this point. There is still ~$5 billion left over after GO RER, and this is more than likely in that group of money.

Presuming no DRL (due to the relief given by the expanded GO network) and a $5 billion dollar pot of money, the list of projects I suspect will go forward are these:

Yonge extension to Steeles $1.1 billion
Hurontario LRT $1.7 billion
Dundas BRT to Hurontario: $300 million
Queen BRT: $600 milllion
Hamilton LRT: $900 Million
Waterfront East LRT: $300 million

And that's assuming some of those projects aren't partially covered by the municipalities. The BRT and Waterfront East projects especially. What I would like to see is every region have their "priority project" completely covered by Metrolinx, while every 'extra' project goes 50/50 or 33/33/33 if they can get federal funding too.

The Hurontario LRT is clearly the priority project for both Brampton and Mississauga, so I wouldn't be surprised if they got the 'Transit City Treatment' on that (100% Provincially funded). The Dundas and Queen BRT on the other hand will probably need to be mostly funded by Peel Region and/or Mississauga and Brampton respectively. The Dundas BRT on the Halton side may get more Metrolinx funding though, because aside from GO improvements, the Dundas BRT is pretty much all Halton is getting or asking for.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Have they looked at a possible phase two? Having the LRT end at the Brampton GO is fine for a phase one. However, there is still housing developments occurring north of there. There should be a phase two for expansion of the Hurontario-Main LRT north. And those housing developments north of the Brampton GO should be, at minimum, a medium density.