Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[JayBeeGooner]

I would never expect Hurontario to grow the same amount as North York Centre. Maybe in a few blocks surrounding Square One it will look like that, let's hope that there are other transit options in that area (like an underground extension of the Milton GO train to Square One) to prevent the Hurontario LRT from being overcrowded. North of Eglinton Hurontario is under the Pearson flightpath and can't be redeveloped. Around Dundas/Hurontario is a fairly low income area so I suspect it won't see that much growth either.

Do you even use Mississauga Transit? I use it everyday (Work for the City), and the 26 is pretty full at 7:15 in the morning from Islington.
Considering the size of Mississauga, and the auto-centric nature of the city, Mississauga Transit is fairly well used.

 

[TOareaFan]

Factoring increased mode share, development, people going out their way to use the line, anyone still think the LRT cannot reach 29 million?

Not the answer you want, but yes I still doubt it......as we discussed upthread, I hope your right and I am wrong, but I don't buy some of the assumptions in the master plan and I don't see ridership growth to 3X what it is now.

From 2001 to 2012 the ridership of Hurontario increased by 2X.

2001
19 Hurontario 20,888
2 Main 2,315
= 23,203

2012
19 Hurontario 20,554
103 Hurontario Express 7,248
502 Zum Main 9,244
2 Main 2,720
= 39,766

I don't think, until the numbers are real rather than projected, or guessed at, that you and I will agree. I think the only thing we agree on is that we both hope you are right and I am wrong.

That increase from 2001 to 2012 (IMO) represents the low hanging fruit. The service improvements by, both, MT and BT between 2001 and 2012 made transit use a viable option...that combined with the massive population growths of the two cities (which is slowing) led to a 71% increase over that 11 year period.

Not sure if the numbers you show are average daily boardings or average weekday boardings but if we assume they are daily, and we assume (which I don't agree with) the LRT produces another 71% increase....that gets you to just over 20 million in a year.

What the recent increase in service and ridership has shown is that there is a population willing to use transit if it provides a decent service level...so it gets the transit friendly and the transit needy onto the transit. The next group (in the suburbs) is the hardest group to get at.....the people who will choose transit over the car they have.

There was a survey just released last week showing that what most people in the GTA considered as an acceptable commute was 30 minutes (+/-).....there are very few trips that the LRT will replace that represent car trips that would be longer than that 30 minutes......so if we take that 39,766 and multiply it by 365 days we get 14.5million.....I just don't believe there are another 15.5 million "transit by choice" trips along this corridor that gets you to the 30 million....and I think that is what makes the planners use very hard to believe assumptions in their ridership projections to get to that number.

Now, does the LRT "need" to get to 30 million to make it make sense? I like the post that Drum made a bit earlier....the one about operating cost efficiencies/savings between buses and LRT.....I, for one, would rather see realistic/believable assumptions made/shown and then get this cost efficiency argument in favour of LRT rather than projections that involved an 8fold increase in transit's share of traffic just by switching to LRT to support a figure of 30 million riders.

We shall see....perhaps by 2031 I will be sitting back saying "wow, I guess 30 million was doable"....but I doubt it

 

[doady]

39k weekday boardings is probably around 11M annual in 2012.

The 29M projection for 2031, that is 19 years after, and assumes 15 years of light rail along Hurontario.

If Hurontario ridership grows at the exact same rate as it did the past 11 years, that's 117% growth from 2012 to 2031. So assuming current ridership 11M annual, the 2031 ridership would be over 24M right there, just based on the past growth.

If we assume no development, 29M ridership from 11M would seemingly represent 3X increase in transit modal split at best. Of course, there's other things to consider. Maybe general traffic along Hurontario decrease dramatically - they are taking away two lanes after all - that's 1/3 of general traffic gone right there. The plan calls for increasing overall capacity of the corridor, but at the same time a dramatic decrease in auto capacity. It's not a matter of "transit by choice" when most of traffic capacity along Hurontario will be solely dedicated to transit.

As pointed out, the mode split is not for neighbourhoods along Hurontario, just the percentage of the modes actually using the corridor itself. A traveler could have origin and destination both outside Hurontario and still use transit along Hurontario.

And I can see that happening as well. The LRT will cut travel times along Hurontario in half. If travel times are really such a big deal, it will have a huge effect on people's travel pattern and choices.

But of course you have to consider all the future development along the corridor, including the massive development at Hurontario/Eglinton. Still lots of greenfields along Hurontario, and lots of greyfields too.

The LRT will also serve the west part of MCC too, which not serve by Hurontario buses now, and we all know the development that's going on there.

Hurontario is still the "low hanging fruit". if you look at census data the rate of transit use among residents living along Hurotnario is still abysmal compared even to outer 416. With LRT who knows...

Hurontario is already by far the busiest local transit corridor in the 905, and one of the top 10 busiest bus corridors in the GTA, and it does not serve the City of Toronto or connect to the TTC or the TTC subway system in any way. Nevermind the effect of LRT - what will happen to Hurontario when both Milton and Georgetown get their all day train service, or the Mississauga Transitway is finally operational and fully complete years from now?

I think 29 million is too low all things considered. I stand by my original statement: Hurontario will push the capacity of light rail to the limits.

 

[drum118]

At a meeting tonight, a comment was made about this line, along the line "Hell With Brampton and Port Credit if they don't want LRT, we will stop the LRT at Courtneypark and run it along it where it will connect with the UPX at the airport as well run it along Dundas to Kipling. Lets see how long it will take to change their minds about not having it."

As for ridership, that number is based on many things with some section being max out after 2040, but not enough to justify a subway. You most likely will have to add a 4th car with 90 second headway for those sections. Better off using 3 45m or 2 60m cars. I expect 2031 numbers will be over 30m, depending when the line goes into service. Once the work is given to start construction, a number of developments will surface that will add to the current ridership numbers at that time.

Even if all day service shows up on all GO lines as well the transitway, numbers of riders will increase on the LRT at a higher rate than what we see today.

 

[TOareaFan]

At a meeting tonight, a comment was made about this line, along the line "Hell With Brampton and Port Credit if they don't want LRT, we will stop the LRT at Courtneypark and run it along it where it will connect with the UPX at the airport as well run it along Dundas to Kipling. Lets see how long it will take to change their minds about not having it."

Would be interesting to know who made those comments and how much of a prevailing thought it is. Of course it does not explain how running along Courntey Park gets you a connection with the UPX (in other words, how a LRT along a road that ends at the south west side of the airport connects to the UPX which comes into the airport from the north east side) and why, if there was enough users for it there wouldn't be a LRT on Dundas anyway (in other words, building a line on one route out of spite for two other communities that questioned/studied the plans in their own areas seems like a particularly bad method of transit planning)..

 

[middeljohn]

The way the city designed the section of Hurontario going through City Centre is a disgrace. The goal is for this section to become Mississauga's downtown, however the sidewalks are the typical width you find in residential suburbs, all of the arterial streets are 6 lanes wide, WITH concrete medians as well, meaning that it is that much more of a hassle to cross the street as a pedestrian. Also, I get the feeling that Mississauga just approves anything to get more tall buildings, with the result being that every single condo has a surface parking lot as well.

That being said, I realize most of these streets have existed as they currently are before the tower building boom started in the CC, however they've done nothing to make the area more walkable since then, which is one of the key aspects required for a section of a city to give off that downtown feeling. Yes it's cool that Mississauga now as a skyline, but until they widen the sidewalks, replace the surface parking lots with mid-rise retail and make the streets narrower, it will continue to be a place where some people live and everyone else drives through without stopping. The LRT will definitely help, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done.

 

[drum118]

Would be interesting to know who made those comments and how much of a prevailing thought it is. Of course it does not explain how running along Courntey Park gets you a connection with the UPX (in other words, how a LRT along a road that ends at the south west side of the airport connects to the UPX which comes into the airport from the north east side) and why, if there was enough users for it there wouldn't be a LRT on Dundas anyway (in other words, building a line on one route out of spite for two other communities that questioned/studied the plans in their own areas seems like a particularly bad method of transit planning)..

You tunnel under the airport runways to make that connection.

We currently have the poorest service to the airport running every 30 minutes weekday and 45-60 minutes on the weekend. So who wants to take transit to the airport in the first place with that kind of service who don't work there in the first place? It cost me $45 to take a cab there/from the last time I used it in 2012.

Dundas was supposed to be an LRT under the original plan from Hurontario to Kipling but was change to BRT to service Dundas up to Burlington as a single route. Dundas is the 2nd busy route in Mississauga from Kipling to Hurontario, but fall off the list west of Ernindale Station Rd with the bulk of riders getting off at Hurontario. Having an LRT on Dundas would kick start the redevelopment of Dundas from Kipling to Hurontario.

The whole idea of the Hurontario LRT was connecting communities and cities, along being one of the backbones for transit in Peel, yet both end don't support the line there. They are the squally wheel that is killing this idea and only a hand full in the first place. The comment was made because of the frustration of people not understanding the big picture and being the "ME" person. I have said similar comments in the past to the point I have recommended that these people pickup the full cost to maintain their life style well others are willing to support the line and transit and not prepare to support their lifestyle in the first place.

I know now that I will be doing something for the first time come election time and that is asking some tough question related to transit and urban at all the various campaign meetings.

 

[TOareaFan]

You tunnel under the airport runways to make that connection.

Any idea what that would cost?

The whole idea of the Hurontario LRT was connecting communities and cities, along being one of the backbones for transit in Peel, yet both end don't support the line there. They are the squally wheel that is killing this idea and only a hand full in the first place. The comment was made because of the frustration of people not understanding the big picture and being the "ME" person. I have said similar comments in the past to the point I have recommended that these people pickup the full cost to maintain their life style well others are willing to support the line and transit and not prepare to support their lifestyle in the first place.

I don't know about the south end but (sadly IMO) the northern end did vote to approve going ahead with the EA.

 

[Tuscani01]

Any idea what that would cost?



I don't know about the south end but (sadly IMO) the northern end did vote to approve going ahead with the EA.

The tunnel already exists. Britannia dips under one, and the other is for infield crews. I'm sure Pearson would be willing to share it with an LRT that would serve the airport. The LRT could then follow the service road to the terminals, or tunnel under the tarmac to get to them.

 

[Platform 27]

TPAP stage now. Public meetings next month.

Hurontario-Main LRT Project Moves Ahead

Feb 19, 2014

The cities of Mississauga and Brampton have recently completed preliminary design and environmental assessment work for the Hurontario-Main Light Rail Transit (LRT) Project from Port Credit into Brampton to initiate the Ontario Ministry of Environment Transportation Project Assessment Process (TPAP). As a priority Next Wave project of Metrolinx’s regional transportation plan, The Big Move, Metrolinx will be joining the municipalities as a co-proponent through this next phase of work.

"It is wonderful we have reached this stage," said Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion. "Our residents and businesses will greatly benefit from having light rail transit on this corridor. This project is about moving people, giving them good transit options and bringing new life and opportunities to the corridor. We know light rail is well suited for this corridor – for the people travelling, living and working on it. People and businesses want the gridlock issue solved. We look forward to working with Brampton and Metrolinx to bring light rail transit to this important corridor."

“Brampton is committed to creating a world-class transit system that is convenient, reliable and modern. A strong city is built on connections, and we want to get those connections right, for businesses, workers, students, GO train commuters and families,” said Brampton Mayor Susan Fennell. “We look forward to continuing to work with Mississauga and Metrolinx to find solutions that meet our respective needs.”

“Metrolinx is pleased to be joining the Cities of Brampton and Mississauga as a co-proponent in the EA process. This project will further link together expanded GO service, MiWay and Zum so people can move throughout the region.” – Bruce McCuaig, President & CEO, Metrolinx.

Transportation Project Assessment Process

The Cities of Mississauga and Brampton have completed what is known in transportation planning as the pre-consultation stage for the project and now have a design that will move through a provincial environmental assessment process. A ‘Notice of Commencement’ has been issued under the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP) that includes going out to the public for comments, looking at potential impacts and how to manage them. Components of the TPAP include examining impacts to transportation and utilities, socio-economic, natural and cultural environment. Information from this process will be made available to the public and the Minister of the Environment as an Environmental Project Report (EPR) in June 2014.

Six-month timeline for the TPAP includes
• 120 days for consultation on positive or negative environmental impacts and preparation of the EPR
• 30 Days for public/government agency review and comment on the EPR
• 35 Days for the Minister of Environment to determine if the project can proceed or requires more work

During the TPAP, the project team will continue to work on the design to be ready for project funding. Staff will report to both Mississauga and Brampton Councils, and the Metrolinx Board of Directors, once the 120 day TPAP period is complete.

The LRT design has more than 20 stops connecting people with transit systems and key destinations in Mississauga and Brampton to get them where they need to go.

March Public Meeting
A third and final Public Information Centre (PIC) for the Hurontario-Main Light Rail (LRT) will be held in March 2014. These meetings will feature display boards and handouts regarding various aspects of the LRT project. Project team members will be on hand to answer questions.

For more information and a corridor map please visit www.hurontario-main.ca

 

[Adjei]

Moves ahead with no funding.

 

[drum118]

Moves ahead with no funding.

It will be shovel ready once the money is found and that maybe in March if we don't go to the polls in June or this year at all.

 

[Frankie1984]

Moves ahead with no funding.

Here's hoping that Flaherty and Emperor Harper are as forthcoming with money as they were with the Bloor-Danforth extension into Scarborough... and as for the province, we'll see as well.

Third public information meeting will be March 26th in Mississauga at City Hall and the 27th in Brampton at the Rose Theatre.

 

[gweed123]

It will be shovel ready once the money is found and that maybe in March if we don't go to the polls in June or this year at all.

How much longer do you think it'll be before the LRT is actually shovel-ready? I haven't been following the progress super closely, so I'm not sure exactly what the timeline is that this point.

 

[drum118]

How much longer do you think it'll be before the LRT is actually shovel-ready? I haven't been following the progress super closely, so I'm not sure exactly what the timeline is that this point.

The project is 35% design at this time.

Final EA approval by fall and 6 months late doing so.

Metrolinx BOD to approve it for the 2015 budget by year end

Tender is to be call in 2015/16 with construction starting in 2016

Completion around 2020 depending on the final approve plan.

Work is to start on the yard first and unknown where others will take place. Thinking is going both direction from the yard and opening in phases. Phase 1 between Sq One and Brampton Shoppers World or Downtown depending on what the out come of the downtown plan.