christiesplits
Senior Member
Has an official map been released of the new route?
Islington Express Bus
Active Member
An Appleby Line Line?
Allandale25
Senior Member
No, but I imagine as a baseline they are considering the surface and tunnel option maps from the City of Brampton staff report. Want to see it?
just east of the creek
Active Member
Seriously? An Appleby Line? With due respect - no, no, no. Burlington barely supports a bus service. Burlington is Denali country. Burlington is a notable day when you see a cyclist. I cannot envision, right now, any fiscal argument that would make sense in Burlington beyond improving the existing bus service. And the line would not be Appleby anyways. It would be 'S' shaped, from the NE corner of the city at Dundas and Appleby, then west to Guelph Line, south along Guelph Line, West along Fairview to the GO station......and then a tunnel down Brant to the Lakeshore?
A Trafalgar line connecting the Dundas Busway with Oakville Go makes more sense. I could see where that, with all the planned development, may start to have some fiscal legs in a some, limited form. But do not start talking about tunneling down to the Lakeshore as well. As it is, I cannot believe anyone would be contemplating a tunnel into Brampton.
But again, better bus service with higher levels of usage would be a good start for any of these municipalities. Not to mention the fiscal impacts of multibillion dollar lines (and tunnels) here, there and everywhere?
crs1026
Senior Member
That's the thing, any higher order transit has to be paced alongside development, and the two need to be planned together.
I would hope that for Burlington and Oakville, we could reverse the pattern in Toronto (and Mississagua, even) where the development happened first and now we have to figure out how to fit transit into a built form where it wasn't roughed in from the beginning. That doesn't mean we rush to build subways to nowhere - but it's fair game to figure out where Oakville and Burlington will be intensifying, and building the transit as that happens.
- Paul
Sunnyside
Active Member
I wouldn’t discount the psychological “rail effect” either. Given the demographics of Oakville/Burlington, we might see transit uptake increase more for LRT but not much for better bus service, as these riders probably have the choice to drive. I don’t think there’s a way to confirm that though short of looking at ridership patterns south of the QEW in Mississauga (Port Credit). If the LRT is exceedingly popular with that cohort, way more than any prior bus service, then we might want to reevaluate what and where we build LRTs.
Still, I don’t think there’s the motivation nor money for it in the next 20 years unless Halton ponies up- Metrolinx has far more urgent projects to start instead.
Bojaxs
Active Member
Lived in Oakville my whole life. You see a lot of luxury cars parked in the reserved spots at the Oakville GO station. But you won't see those same people riding the local buses to the GO station or to get around Oakville. People in Oakville support transit. So long as it's not a bus. I think it's just simply that people see buses as the form of transit for the minimum wage workers, while transit on rails is seen as the form of transit for bankers who need to get downtown.
just east of the creek
Active Member
I would certainly hope that is happening in Oakville, along the Trafalgar corridor, recently expanded with a width that could accommodate light rail, with a lot of densification being planned around the Mid-Town/Go Station area, and the stretch between Sheridan College and Dundas. This would be a natural route. Dundas itself will be home to a BRT. Although you do have in creasing densification, you also have a lot of single family homes, then townhomes, so to overstate potential ridership potential is not helpful. Back to the planning updates the town sends me.
As for Burlington. I am not sure there will be a case for light rail. Shorter distances, different densification pattern, nearing a built out status. and you'll need a crowbar to get people out of their cars/trucks/SUV's etc.
sixrings
Senior Member
You don’t need to have an Oakville address or a fancy car to recognize rail is regarded as better than the bus. A large part of the Transit City research showed that people preferred rail because it was more comfortable, more upscale and more permanent than a bus lane. If we are going to argue that Oakville is so fancy that they need rail in order to take transit can we at least talk about upgrading the dundas line which goes through Mississauga as well and has all sorts of development potential.
Allandale25
Senior Member
I don't think the actual letter from the Minister to Metrolinx was posted, so here it is. It was in this media article from yesterday.A couple of news items concerning additions to Hurontario LRT, both in Brampton and downtown Miss.
Ford government planning Brampton, Mississauga additions to Hazel McCallion LRT - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
Ontario is reversing its decision to scrap the Mississauga downtown loop on the LRT, which will also be extended into downtown Brampton.globalnews.ca
From the above:
View attachment 533867
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View attachment 533868
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Comment: Remember what I've said about IBCs being nonsense; a consultant enrichment scheme that doesn't alter what actually gets done. Here's your picture perfect case, the government has already made its decision and is now ordering IBCs which will not change the outcome. Good use of funds everyone!
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Additional article w/similar info here:
Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s government directs Metrolinx to expand LRT plans into downtown Mississauga and Brampton
The Ford government wants Metrolinx to create a plan to expand the Hazel McCallion LRT into Mississauga and Brampton’s downtown areaswww.hub.metroland.com
crs1026
Senior Member
It's all about the right tool for the job. I prefer LRT over busway as a backbone, but not every need is for a backbone. The value of the bus is that it can economically and efficiently fan out into side streets and local areas, where the LRT can only be one size that has to fit all.
By that standard, a busway along Dundas to Line 2 (hopefully at Cloverdale, not Kipling) makes good sense because of the number of Miway routes that fan out from the subway. Bus links to GO stations are probably better value for money than LRT's because they can provide single-ride transportation much closer to the front door of more locales. Building LRT to GO forces transfers up the line to local buses. That added transfer is a disincentive.
The problem with all of Burlington, Oakville, Mississauga, etc is that the built form assumes automobile, and transit can only play a distant second in convenience to that. It will take decades to transform all that built form into something where people start to see their car as superfluous, or at least excessively extravagant. Throwing LRT level investment at that problem may not be a good use of money.
I can see the value in LRT along Lakeshore Blvd, and Dundas Street, and perhaps one or two north-south corridors.... but that is predicated on local transport needs that call for a backbone. And that implies much more development than is planned at the moment, notwithstanding the plans to intensify on those routes. As for Hurontario, having it connect to GO at Port Credit and Brampton will be nice, but that's not the centre of the universe. A second east-west backbone, perhaps connected to the city centers, may be what makes the Hurontario LRT succeed.
- Paul
Amare
Senior Member
And there in lies the problem with Metrolinx ladies and gentlemen:
"Premier Ford has asked that I direct Metrolinx...."
So much for that supposed arm-lengths agency huh?
At least the minister is being open in unintentionally admitting that it isnt. They might as well just have Metrolinx be absorbed into the Ministry of Transportation, especially since their overall role will be shrinking in 2025.
Allandale25
Senior Member
In somewhat fairness, the corridor is in the local OPs and the existing Regional Transportation Plan. It's not like it's a completely new concept.
Amare
Senior Member
While this is true, if it's to the point where the Minister is just going to write to Metrolinx what they should/shouldnt do, they should just finally put an end the charade and disband Metrolinx.
The only real major key functions they'll be responsible for in the future is scheduling/operating the GO bus network, Presto, and planning the transportation network (which is basically what the MTO/Premier's office is doing for them).
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Metrolinx is genuinely unable to properly plan transit because of incompetence and a flawed business case methodology, and requires political interference to get stuff done. They can’t even write their own 2051 Regional Transportation Plan and have subbed out the work to HDR, spending only slightly more on it than they did Christmas decorations at Union Station this year.
That’s my hot take.