Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

marp said:
"Companies asked to kick in for new Markham arena"

http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1330485--companies-asked-to-kick-in-for-new-markham-arena
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According to sources who requested confidentiality, the mayor asked for a voluntary contribution of $2,500 per condominium unit and $5,000 per single family home for a total of $90 million.

guess who is going to pay that money? potential buyers. Thats insane. If the people who are building cant afford it, then dont build it. BTW the locations SUCKS and is practically only accessable by car....

The Argos are averaging something like 10,000 fans and so are the JAys. Both are located right downtown surrounded by development, transit and a highway. Why would these people think that somehow they will get 20,000 ppl to a hockey game in markham. Its no different then the corel centre in ottawa which Ottawa ppl hate. The problem here is that Torontonians will have another option with the Leafs. Need a hockey example in a hockey market, how about the new jersey devils. Even though they have won they are dying attendance wise. I might be able to handle a suburban location but at least a suburban location accessable by transit.
 
sixrings said:
According to sources who requested confidentiality, the mayor asked for a voluntary contribution of $2,500 per condominium unit and $5,000 per single family home for a total of $90 million.

guess who is going to pay that money? potential buyers. Thats insane. If the people who are building cant afford it, then dont build it. BTW the locations SUCKS and is practically only accessable by car....

The Argos are averaging something like 10,000 fans and so are the JAys. Both are located right downtown surrounded by development, transit and a highway. Why would these people think that somehow they will get 20,000 ppl to a hockey game in markham. Its no different then the corel centre in ottawa which Ottawa ppl hate. The problem here is that Torontonians will have another option with the Leafs. Need a hockey example in a hockey market, how about the new jersey devils. Even though they have won they are dying attendance wise. I might be able to handle a suburban location but at least a suburban location accessable by transit.
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While I agree the voluntary contribution is a bad idea -- this should be supported by residents only by way of the town putting in for things such as infrastructure, etc. -- the location hardly "sucks." It would be a suburban counterpart to the ACC that's right on a GO line, next to a highway with GO bus service, and directly on the regional BRT. It's closer to all of York Region, all of Durham and parts of Scarborough and Peel than the ACC (by car or 407 bus). York Region alone has almost as many people as Edmonton, Calgary or Ottawa, so it's hardly a hinterland.

Let's be honest, it's unfair to compare baseball attendance to hockey. A hockey team here would sell out consistently without a single downtowner making the trip north. There are high levels of disposable income in the 905, so for hockey and big-name concerts, I don't see any issue. It's not like a basketball or lacrosse team is planned.

The Ottawa comparison is also misleading since in Ottawa you have to go to the burbs to see hockey, whereas in the GTA you have would have two options. The same would probably be true for many concerts as well. I'm not as familiar with the New Jersey example, but that's also different since you have the Islanders as well.
 
canarob said:
While I agree the voluntary contribution is a bad idea -- this should be supported by residents only by way of the town putting in for things such as infrastructure, etc. -- the location hardly "sucks." It would be a suburban counterpart to the ACC that's right on a GO line, next to a highway with GO bus service, and directly on the regional BRT. It's closer to all of York Region, all of Durham and parts of Scarborough and Peel than the ACC (by car or 407 bus). York Region alone has almost as many people as Edmonton, Calgary or Ottawa, so it's hardly a hinterland.

Let's be honest, it's unfair to compare baseball attendance to hockey. A hockey team here would sell out consistently without a single downtowner making the trip north. There are high levels of disposable income in the 905, so for hockey and big-name concerts, I don't see any issue. It's not like a basketball or lacrosse team is planned.

The Ottawa comparison is also misleading since in Ottawa you have to go to the burbs to see hockey, whereas in the GTA you have would have two options. The same would probably be true for many concerts as well. I'm not as familiar with the New Jersey example, but that's also different since you have the Islanders as well.
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I largely agree with the notion that it is a tough comparison (either the NJ one or the Ottawa one) but I just wanted to clarify what you are saying with regards to concerts? While I don't disagree with the notion that a hockey club in burbs becomes an option to attending a hockey game at the ACC.....but I doubt if any acts are going to come to Toronto and to a show in Markham and a show at the ACC.....one of the advantages that acts get when they do multi-night stops in a city is that their profit margin increases as the travel/transport/set-up/tear down costs are lowered/amortized......hardly think that they are going to bring that additional cost back by taking the rigs from one arena to the other.

(if that is not what you meant, sorry but that is how it read to me).

What is more likely, I think, is that this arena actually becomes a prefered location for concerts/shows. Given the lower booked nights compared to the ACC (even if there was a new NHL team in Markham there still would be less nights booked as there is no NBA tenant) this venue would provide more date flexibility to the acts, more potential for multi-night stints and, as a result, likely a lower cost to the tour/act/promoter.
 
TOareaFan said:
I largely agree with the notion that it is a tough comparison (either the NJ one or the Ottawa one) but I just wanted to clarify what you are saying with regards to concerts? While I don't disagree with the notion that a hockey club in burbs becomes an option to attending a hockey game at the ACC.....but I doubt if any acts are going to come to Toronto and to a show in Markham and a show at the ACC.....one of the advantages that acts get when they do multi-night stops in a city is that their profit margin increases as the travel/transport/set-up/tear down costs are lowered/amortized......hardly think that they are going to bring that additional cost back by taking the rigs from one arena to the other.

(if that is not what you meant, sorry but that is how it read to me).

What is more likely, I think, is that this arena actually becomes a prefered location for concerts/shows. Given the lower booked nights compared to the ACC (even if there was a new NHL team in Markham there still would be less nights booked as there is no NBA tenant) this venue would provide more date flexibility to the acts, more potential for multi-night stints and, as a result, likely a lower cost to the tour/act/promoter.
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Yeah, I think you're right in that concerts would probably be either here or the ACC, but not both. You make some good points.
 
sixrings said:
The Argos are averaging something like 10,000 fans and so are the JAys.
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The Argos were the lowest in the league in attendance last year but they still drew 20,018 per game, with an awful team, in an awful stadium. The Jays drew 22,445 in the same awful stadium (it really is terrible for both sports). That's not really relevant though, since hockey is vastly more popular than football or baseball. Argos and Jays attendance has nothing to do with the attendance of a new NHL team.

TOareaFan said:
What is more likely, I think, is that this arena actually becomes a prefered location for concerts/shows. Given the lower booked nights compared to the ACC (even if there was a new NHL team in Markham there still would be less nights booked as there is no NBA tenant) this venue would provide more date flexibility to the acts, more potential for multi-night stints and, as a result, likely a lower cost to the tour/act/promoter.
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True, and this is already happening to an extent with Copps Coliseum.
 
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Apparently there was a meeting about this tonight in council, looks like it is moving closer to fruition.
 
That stadium could be a good venue to bring in different kinds of ethnic entertainment like top Bollywood stars or Hong Kong pop stars. Ethnic communities love their home country's culture and no other area would be more suited for a multi-cultural entertainment centre, than the GTA. I've been to a few of those ethnic events and people go nuts.
 
Also worth noting that the Blue Jays haven't been in a playoff race in 19 years. That is a huge factor in their poor attendance. If they compete for the playoffs in the next couple years, you should see good to very good turnouts. Their TV numbers are fantastic.

So, I would in no way look at their gate struggles over the past few years as a comparison for this.

If you were to compare Toronto to similar sized markets in the US, it should be plenty big enough for another team in the 'Big 4' sports. Particularly if it's hockey.
 
Sounds like this is going ahead. Public meeting this Friday.

A 20,000-seat suburban arena that could ultimately be home to the Greater Toronto Area’s second NHL team and the 2015 World Junior Championship is one step closer to becoming reality. In fact, it’s expected shovels will be in the ground this summer and the facility will be open by the fall of 2014.

The city of Markham (a suburb of Toronto) announced that it will hold two meetings on the proposed Markham Sports, Entertainment and Cultural Centre. The first meeting is scheduled for Friday and is open to the public and is designed to solicit public input into the project. The second meeting is a special meeting of the council scheduled for April 26, at which time the 13-member council will vote on whether or not to approve construction of the facility. The project will require seven votes to pass.

Meanwhile, THN.com has learned that Graeme Roustan, the chairman of the hockey equipment giant Bauer and the driving force behind the arena, has already made a formal application to Hockey Canada to host the 2015 World Junior Championship. If the bid were accepted, it would mark the first time in history the tournament has been held in Canada’s largest city.

Should the arena be approved, and there’s no reason to believe it will not at this point, construction will begin this summer, as will speculation about if and when a second NHL team could land in Toronto. Roustan has maintained all along that the league has made him no guarantees concerning relocation or expansion and that his facility can be self-sufficient from a financial standpoint without an anchor NHL tenant.

But the reality is this is a $300 million project being built in the most fertile, underserviced hockey market in the world and Roustan is a hockey guy through and through. In fact, he came very close to purchasing the Tampa Bay Lightning and Montreal Canadiens and has made no secret of his desire to own an NHL team. He owns a company that has built hundreds of indoor rinks in North America and is currently in partnership with the Montreal Canadiens and Ottawa Senators to build outdoor rinks to service underprivileged communities.

“We are aware (the facility) is being contemplated,†NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said last year. “Yes, we have had discussions with Mr. Roustan and he has been informed that in deciding whether to proceed (or not) with the project, he should assume that no NHL franchise will be forthcoming. There is no current contemplation of locating an NHL franchise in Markham.â€

That, however, will not halt speculation concerning the possibility of an NHL team relocating to Toronto. One of the reasons why Winnipeg got the Atlanta Thrashers last summer was the city had a ready-made arena to which the team could move. And while the Maple Leafs believe they have the legal right to veto any team moving into their geographic territory, the league has already gone on the record saying that is not the case.
 
I think this will go ahead.

BTW one should keep in mind that this is proposed to be part of the Markham live project ... which basically a bunch of olymipic sport training facility (i.e. a bunch of pools / tennis / archery / ...):
Early planning study (these pictures don't represent anything accurate):
http://www.bharchitects.com/en/projects/296#6

Recent request by Markham (i.e. March 2012) for interested partites:
http://www2.markham.ca/markham/ccbs/indexfile/Agendas/2012/General/gc120206/Attachment%201%20Don-RFI-%20MARKHAM%20INTERNATIONAL%20SPORTS%20TRAINING%20ACADEMY.pdf

This contains a more accurate description / site plan.


I think this won't go ahead exactly at the same time as the arena as that will start this summer while the above will probably not start for at least a couple years.


But this should give everyone an idea what the eastern part of downtown Markham will entail.
 
JMSRead said:
Also worth noting that the Blue Jays haven't been in a playoff race in 19 years. That is a huge factor in their poor attendance. If they compete for the playoffs in the next couple years, you should see good to very good turnouts. Their TV numbers are fantastic.

So, I would in no way look at their gate struggles over the past few years as a comparison for this.

If you were to compare Toronto to similar sized markets in the US, it should be plenty big enough for another team in the 'Big 4' sports. Particularly if it's hockey.
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This comment comes up a lot, but I wouldn't call the Jays' attendance poor. It's not the best, but they've still averaged over 20,000 almost every year since their 30,000-40,000+ highs in the 1990s. The problem is the Skydome is so massive, that even at 25,000 people it looks pretty empty (as a comparison, that would fill this new arena). I predict the attendance will increase significantly over the next few seasons if they continue playing as strong as they are right now.
 
egotrippin said:
This comment comes up a lot, but I wouldn't call the Jays' attendance poor. It's not the best, but they've still averaged over 20,000 almost every year since their 30,000-40,000+ highs in the 1990s. The problem is the Skydome is so massive, that even at 25,000 people it looks pretty empty (as a comparison, that would fill this new arena). I predict the attendance will increase significantly over the next few seasons if they continue playing as strong as they are right now.
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I get sucked into this discussion too easily. Firstly their "highs" were consistant seasons of 4 million fans (ie. about 50k per game)......the last time they drew 30k per game (2.4 million a season - well, 2.39) was 2008 and that was the only time this century. Last season they drew just over 1.8 million fans (22,445 per game). That ranked them 25th in the major leagues (30 teams). Considering our population and the relative health of our economy (compared to the other 29 markets which are all in the US) that had to be disappointing.

It is early days thus far but this year's attendance average is 26,576 (through 7 games) which is good for 23rd in the majors.

Does their attendance get better if they are a contending team? Probably....does it get back to the glory days of sold out Roger's Centre....probably that would be a rarity.

At just over 49k capacity for baseball, I believe it is the 2nd biggest stadium in baseball ...but not by miles...just slightly bigger than some others. In 2011 Toronto sold 45.6% of their available seats (the lowest in the majors) and this year they are (early days) 54% (3rd lowest in the majors).

Whether or not we think Blue Jays attendance is "poor" or "good" is a bit irrelevent...statistically (relative to the size of the market) it is hard to argue...it is low.

source of mlb attendance stats: http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
 
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Fair enough.

I consider it decent though considering how many games there are in a regular season vs other sports. In addition, there are a lot more major league sports teams playing in Toronto, whereas a lot of MLB cities are just baseball cities through and through. Regardless, considering Toronto's population we should be drawing 30,000+ crowds every game, and I think we'll get back to that number soon enough; assuming tonight's 12-2 loss was just a fluke.
 
@Toareafan

I believe we argued about this a few months ago. :)

I don't actually disagree with you - the Jays attendance has been low. But there is nothing unusual about an MLB team drawing poor crowds when it's been in a prolonged playoff drought. For example, the Yankees drew 21K a game in 92, the last time they were uncompetitive (http://tinyurl.com/67yr9tf). The Phillies drew in the low 20ks ten years ago, before their new stadium and before they got competitive (http://tinyurl.com/7nrhy5a).

I'm sure if you look through ESPN you can find examples that are exceptions to that, but I can assure you (as a seriously hardcore MLB fan) there is a general strong correlation between long periods without a playoff race and poor attendance. (With the exception of a new stadium, or certain teams with incredible, Leaf-like support such as the Red Sox and Cubs).

The support for the Jays is neither surprising nor unusual in light of 19 years without a playoff race. As they get better, their numbers will improve. Not 50k a game again, you're right.

Anyway - I'm only making that distinction because the topic is a 2nd GTA NHL team, and someone suggested that the recent low Jays attendance could be an indicator that Toronto might be 'tapped out' for sports because of that.

My point is - the Jays recent poor attendance is a reflection of the team's lack of a postseason pursuit. It does not indicate that Toronto is already 'tapped out' for sports or something like that. Many smaller sized cities in the US have 4 teams in the 'big 4' plus college, MLS etc. Look at cities like Denver (2.5 mil METRO - 4 teams in big 4), or Minneapolis (3.3 mil METRO, 3 teams in big 4). I know we have the Argos, but as I said most of these cities have college sports programs that draw similar numbers or better than the Argos do here.

Barring having an arena in a bad location or something unforeseen - Toronto should be able to support another franchise. (Particularly hockey).
 
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