Toronto Emerald Park Condos | 128.92m | 40s | Bazis | Rosario Varacalli

This Emerald Park development will NEVER happen.
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Well, sunnyray, I do hope you will choke on these words one day...:)
 
Automation Gallery said:
Sunny Ray, Sounds like you live in the area and your totaly against any development in your backyard.
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Automation Gallery,... is that the best you can do? A "oh, you must be a NIMBY." Surely you can do better than that. Debate why this Bazis Emerald Park project should go ahead as it is. Isn't that what these boards are for,... to share information, opinion and debate,... instead of calling anyone who disagree with your stand a NIMBY,... :rolleyes:

First, that land should be developed, it's been parking lots and torn down houses for a couple of decades now.

That said, whatever is developed on that land should and must comply with the city guidelines and plans including height restriction, density restriction and land use. Otherwise why do we even have these city guidelines and plans? These city guidelines and plans are drawn up by our city planner, civil engineers with years of university education and experience. These city guidelines and plans are voted on by our democratically elected city councillors. So these city guidelines and plans do have value,... regardless the desires of quick-buck wham-bam-thank-you-mam developers who don't even live in the area.

You can't have all the other developer complying with these city guidelines and plans,... but one developer building a mega tower that'll dwarf all the other condo and office towers in the area. And bringing in much higher density that drains an infrastructure that's already bursting at the seams. Have you ever driven in the Yonge & Sheppard area?,... its gridlock traffic all day long. Most area schools are turning away students because they're already at full capacity.


yyzer said:
Well, sunnyray, I do hope you will choke on these words one day...:)
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yyzer,... see above response,.... debate why this Bazis Emerald Park project should go ahead as it is. :rolleyes:
 
Solaris said:
AoD ... but the 'commerical+office' premise was the primary direction in order to create the Yonge+Sheppard node ... just as Yonge+Eglinton wouldn't mean anything special if it was just all residential condos (which Yonge+Sheppard is heading towards) on that basis ... IMO, lack of an office component is a very valid argument
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oreoshack said:
how is yonge and sheppard heading towards an all residential node? there are many office/commercial spots from just south of sheppard to empress on yonge. i would even argue that there are more office buildings in NYCC then at eglinton (but i would have nothing to prove that point with)
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Years ago when we had the original city of North York, the original plans for the development of downtown North York was to allow only office buildings along Yonge Street from Finch Ave to the 401,... All new development with Yonge Street frontage was to be for Office building only, without any residential usage,....and residential condos would be allowed only behind the office buildings away from Yonge Street and thus condos would not have Yonge Street frontage.

Since early 90s, the demand for office building plummeted in both North York city and downtown Toronto,... in mid 90's site beside Nestle building at south-west corner of Yonge & Sheppard was to have twin office tower mirroring existing Nestle building,... still waiting for that to be built. Until a few years ago, the last major office building project in Toronto was BCE Place finished in early 90's. North York downtown have only seen one office building go up in the last 10-15 years,... Aegon Place just south of Mel Lastman square.

Demand for office building plummeted companies opted for suburban campus type offices and avoided Toronto's high tax for office space,... and new technologies allowed more people to work from home.

After almagamation, the almagamated city of Toronto allowed some new residential condos on Yonge Street in downtown North York like Empress Walk (twin tower residential condo with shopping mall podium) right across Yonge Street from North York City Centre (two office tower, one hotel building with shopping podium) and Mel Lastman's square. Once they let one residential condo onto Yonge Street with Yonge street frontage,... the floodgates opened in downtown North York! Since then, there's been numerous condo development on Yonge Street in downtown North York,... But they have yet to allow residential condos at the major intersections like Yonge & Finch and Yonge & Sheppard.

Thus, compared to the original vision that Mel Lastman and North York city councillors had for Yonge Street in downtown North York,... only office building on Yonge Street in downtown North York,.... yes, downtown North York is heading towards a much heavier proportion of residential vs office/commercial mix.

Without a major office component in Downtown North York, where are the downtown North York condo residents supposed to work,... in downtown Toronto?,.... and commute via an already 100% full capacity Yonge subway line,... that can't even provide adequate service to Mid-town Toronto residents during AM peak time.

NOTE: The recent office construction in Toronto downtown core is helped by financial incentives (tax breaks) given by the city. The city of Toronto is now encouraging office development in Toronto downtown core,.... and not strongly encouraging it in downtown North York.
 
Automation Gallery said:
Wow, where did you hear of all this bullshit. :confused:
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From a city planner,... :D

Oh little grasshopper,.... listen, research and learn. A little google search on "Toronto office development tax break" would have saved you big embarassment. :rolleyes:

"Tax Increment Equivalent Grant (TIEG).",... "The TIEG system lets developers phase in property tax payments over a period of time and has been used in various U.S. jurisdictions for many years to lure high-value investment. TIEGs are new in Toronto - council first approved the plan in May of this year, and WoodbineLive! is the first recipient."
http://www.insidetoronto.ca/News/Etobicoke/article/52078

"New industrial and non-retail commercial developments will receive tax reductions for five years. In the first year, the municipal tax reduction could be as much as 16% for non-retail commercial and 23% for industrial development. This program mirrors a similar program the Provincial government announced in the 2007 budget to reduce Provincial education taxes for new non-residential development."
http://www.toronto.ca/tobusiness/2007-november.htm

"The tax incentive plan approved by the committee is the largest tax break Toronto has ever granted a developer, and the first in the new Tax Increment Equivalent Grant (TIEG) program that council approved just this past spring. That program, devised as a way to stimulate high-level employment in a city that otherwise has had difficulty retaining industrial and high-end office uses, lets qualifying developments phase in their property tax payments over a decade."
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...evelopment+tax+break&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca

"The new vision for Toronto is focused simultaneously on job creation and stimulating commercial development. It aims to bring jobs to the city in industries like environmental innovation, new media and computer design, by providing bonuses for companies to build headquarters, facilities and offices on vacant city lands."
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/.../tax-breaks-the-right-thing-to-do-miller.aspx
 
Sunnyray, can it with the Grasshopper crap, or you'll be hopped on outta here tout de suite. Thanks for your boatloads of research, sincerely, but your arrival on the scene here will continue to be rocky if you don't act somewhat more graciously towards longstanding members.

Meanwhile, you have not proven your point in regards to downtown getting tax incentives that are not available elsewhere. Woodbine Live! is hardly downtown. How many other projects have received these benefits yet? And why do you believe they would not be available to a North York project (or at least not extended eagerly)?

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interchange42 said:
Sunnyray, can it with the Grasshopper crap, or you'll be hopped on outta here tout de suite. Thanks for your boatloads of research, sincerely, but your arrival on the scene here will continue to be rocky if you don't act somewhat more graciously towards longstanding members.
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To get respect one has to treat other with respect,... and dismissing one's comment with cheap shots like "Sunny Ray, Sounds like you live in the area and your totaly against any development in your backyard." or hoping "Well, sunnyray, I do hope you will choke on these words one day..." or challenging one with "Wow, where did you hear of all this bullshit." hardly deserves respect,... especially mine.

You're a moderator,... if you want me "hopped on outta here tout de suite",... then go ahead. :)

What are you moderating,... a board for cheap shot artist,... or a board to exchange option, ideas, research and debate issues.


interchange42 said:
Meanwhile, you have not proven your point in regards to downtown getting tax incentives that are not available elsewhere. Woodbine Live! is hardly downtown. How many other projects have received these benefits yet? And why do you believe they would not be available to a North York project (or at least not extended eagerly)?

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That is not my point! I never stated that Toronto "downtown getting tax incentives that are not available elsewhere". Please do not put words into my mouth.

I stated: "The recent office construction in Toronto downtown core is helped by financial incentives (tax breaks) given by the city. The city of Toronto is now encouraging office development in Toronto downtown core,.... and not strongly encouraging it in downtown North York."

Currently, there isn't any office construction in North York downtown or anywhere else in Toronto outside of the downtown core. And when I spoke to a Toronto city planner last week questioning him about the North York downtown service ring road and what happened to the City of North York's original vision of only office buildings along Yonge Street in downtown North York,.... he made it quite clear that the City of Toronto is now encouraging Office development in Toronto downtown core and NOT in downtown North York. The demand for office in Toronto have plummeted in the last 10-15 years,.... what few office demand that is now rebounding, the city of Toronto want that office development in the downtown core (as seen by office developement at old Bay-Adelaide Richmond centre and office development just south of Metro Hall).

(Hey, we now have a "downtown mayor" who seems to favour his downtown city councillors more.)

Why downtown Toronto instead of downtown North York,... both serviced by TTC Subway lines,... both serviced by major highways,... downtown Toronto serviced by GO trains whereas downtown North York isn't. Downtown Toronto is basically at the edge of Lake Ontario,... people really can't live on the water,... and thus most commuter come in from north, east and west. Downtown North York is basically the centre of GTA,... commuter can come in from all direction. TTC is busting at the seams servicing downtown core during rush hour,... subway passengers are constantly left on the platform during AM and PM rush hour,... King and Queen streetcars are constantly leaving passengers waiting at streetcar stops downtown as pack streetcars after pack streetcars roll by,...

So why is the city of Toronto still focusing on developing more offices in the downtown core? Simple money,... the city is desperate for money,.. tax money. These tax breaks goes to development anywhere in the city,.. but when it's downtown offices,... it encourages more people to move into new condos downtown, and by houses downtown, houses that are tax assessed at a newer and most likely higher value. It also help keeps the existing donwtown Toronto non-residential (ie commercial & office) property value high which is important to the city of Toronto since they're taxed at a higher rate than residential property. Downtown Toronto real estate is much more expensive than those in the non-downtown area of Toronto on a per square foot basis,... and would thus generate higher property tax for the city,... a city desperate for money.
 
Sunnyray: I know that others are also making cheap shots in this thread, but from your first posts you've been all-guns-blazing, and I'm not surprised by the reactions you're getting. Plus, the condescension shown with your use of 'Grasshopper' is not a great way to make your initial stand on UT. You have to understand that this forum has seen so many empty-headed NIMBYs pop on by that it's not unreasonable for longtime members to have expected that yet again. It's a pleasant surprise that you actually have some research to back up your assertions.

About your downtown office development assertion however, I don't think that one planner you spoke with has presented the whole picture. The City just did what they could, for example, to get a new SNC Lavalin HQ built at Islington subway station. (That only fell apart when SNC Lavalin wanted tons of parking space there for their employees - it's at a subway station, for goodness sakes). The City has also recently planned for the redevelopment of the Six Points interchange area with significant office space included, and offices remain a major component of future redevelopment plans at Yonge & Eg, NYCC, and SCC as well. The City wouldn't sneeze at or put up road blocks against any of it. No small differential in the higher taxes that would be generated from downtown developments would be enough to derail any plans for projects in commercial nodes around the city.

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sunray, if you don't like tall buildings, you are in the wrong area, nay the wrong city. That's your problem, if you don't like it, move to Newmarket. This is really foolish, we're talking about Yonge and Sheppard here, get with the program, it's 2009, it'll be 2010 next year. Time's are changing, shape up or ship out.

I will not be making any other posts besides this one in response or otherwise.
 
I don't think he's trying to say tall buildings shouldn't be built in NYCC. But that government is encouraging business to locate downtown so they can tax them more. Downtown costs more than NYCC. Also, with all the plans to revamp the downtown area, it makes sense if they can tax people downtown more. Then there would be less complains. How would people in NYCC feel if their tax money is going towards fixing downtown when they live uptown. However, if people live downtown and get taxed more, they help pay for the revitalization downtown. They can't complain. Anyhow I read somewhere that the government wanted to tax the people living in the waterfront to pay for fixing up union station. So the more business is shifted downtown, the more tax money they get.

Anyhow it seems the area has a 100m height restriction. Unless they change the law, it would be difficult to go past that height.
 
One quick question~

When I was talking with Roy, I asked him if Hullmark had all the approvals from the city. His response to me was that, Hullmark is in the same shoe as Bazis and are waiting to see what happens with Emerald Park. Was he just bs'ing his way out of question? or is there any validity in his statement?
 
To be honest, I don't think Emerald Park will go up either, but for economic, not bureaucratic reasons. Unless they have sold enough of the units to start construction already, it will be very difficult to pull it off. Which is a crying shame, because I'd love to see them (and the Hullmark Center) go up.
 
I believe Tridel has their approvals from the City for Hullmark. Tridel usually waits for their buildings to be approved before selling units, which they are doing now. Before approval they accept pre-registrations.
 
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