Unfortunately it is kind of stunted. A lot more office space was planned but it didn't materialize. And I doubt it ever will. Yonge and Eglinton and Yonge and St Clair are still better as "downtowns". But there still is space so who knows.
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amnesiajune
Senior Member
I think NYCC is more likely to see office development than Yonge & Eglinton or Yonge & St. Clair, simply because of accessibility. The latter two don't have any transit from outside of Toronto proper. Even from many areas within the city, it's hard to get to Yonge & St. Clair without driving. A big part of what created NYCC was being beside the 401 and having direct bus service to the rest of the 905 as well as the subway line.
Having said that, fare integration with Go Transit would be a game-changer. If someone from outside of the 905 could take the train to Union and get a free (or extremely cheap) subway connection to St. Clair/Eglinton, those two centres become a lot more viable.
Having said that, fare integration with Go Transit would be a game-changer. If someone from outside of the 905 could take the train to Union and get a free (or extremely cheap) subway connection to St. Clair/Eglinton, those two centres become a lot more viable.
junctionist
Senior Member
I don't see what makes either of those intersections better as "downtowns" than NYCC with all its amenities. True, many of the amenities are the legacy of the city of North York. But many of Toronto's great neighbourhoods grew out of a village, town, or even a city that was separate from the city of Toronto and was later amalgamated. They kept some of the features of those old places, and people still enjoy them to this day.
The Junction, for instance, was once a city called the city of West Toronto. It had its own commercial high street on Dundas with a city hall and a grand customs house and post office, an institutional core on Annette Street with a variety of schools and churches, and an industrial district now known as the Stockyards around St. Clair. West Toronto built a Carnegie library that's still popular to this day as the Annette Library of the Toronto Public Library system.
NYCC is a more recent version of this phenomenon. The scale of the buildings and civic institutions simply reflects that it was developed for a bigger and more metropolitan city. One day, it might see more office development again since the location is still convenient for many people in the GTA.
Stand at the corner of Yonge and Sheppard or Yonge and Finch versus Yonge and Eglinton or Yonge and St Clair. Night and day. In NYCC you can still see and feel the old suburban North York intermixed with towers. There's density but the urban design leaves a lot to be desired. Too much space IMHO. And Yonge Street very much feels like a highway up there. The plans to redo Yonge and the streetscape will help. But it has a long way to go.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
The buildings along Yonge have changed massively from its suburban roots, the road itself has not. Thus the focus of Reimagine Yonge.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
I think that space is a great thing to be honest, since a lot of it is filled with public spaces. Off the top of my head, on Yonge Street itself there's Mel Lastman Square, the federal building plaza and the two plazas at Park Home and Sheppard, and then within one block there's Avondale Park, Albert Park, Beecroft Park, Princess Park, Willowdale Park, Lee Lifeson Park and Gibson Park.
At Yonge & Eglinton or Yonge & St. Clair, it's nothing but buildings. Whatever public space that those centres have is hidden away and impossible to find unless you know which elevator to take to which floor or which gate to hop over into which alley.
It definitely will whenever downtown runs out of land. The 1990s development boom in North York Centre was a result of tax policy - it was a lot cheaper to build than in downtown because of the lower commercial property taxes. Now the whole city pays the same tax rate, so NYCC is barely any cheaper than South Core's vacant land.
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sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Those images show Yonge & St.Clair with office development at all 4 corners! Ditto for Yonge & Eglinton with exception to e-condo.
That is the issue for North York Centre now, North York Centre Secondary area is 2/3 full, but challenge is to keep the prime corner lots with potential for direct subway connection for future office development. And as you can see with GibsonSquare, EmpressWalk, HullmarkCentre, EmeraldPark and 4800 Yonge proposal,... it's a tough battle! Some of these mentioned development has a few floors of token office-condos,... which remains 70% empty.
Problem for North York Centre Secondary Plan area is since they started allowing residential condo towers on Yonge Street, in the last 20 years since amalgamation there has been 60 new residential condo towers built but only one full office tower; the area is now a vertical sleeping community! Thus, you need wide roads to get out of the area,... beside Yonge, the next best options are 2km away at Bayview or Bathurst to cross Highway 401,.... whereas in midtown if Yonge doesn't work, then between Bayview and Bathurst, there's other options like MtPleasant and Avenue Rd.
That is the issue for North York Centre now, North York Centre Secondary area is 2/3 full, but challenge is to keep the prime corner lots with potential for direct subway connection for future office development. And as you can see with GibsonSquare, EmpressWalk, HullmarkCentre, EmeraldPark and 4800 Yonge proposal,... it's a tough battle! Some of these mentioned development has a few floors of token office-condos,... which remains 70% empty.
Problem for North York Centre Secondary Plan area is since they started allowing residential condo towers on Yonge Street, in the last 20 years since amalgamation there has been 60 new residential condo towers built but only one full office tower; the area is now a vertical sleeping community! Thus, you need wide roads to get out of the area,... beside Yonge, the next best options are 2km away at Bayview or Bathurst to cross Highway 401,.... whereas in midtown if Yonge doesn't work, then between Bayview and Bathurst, there's other options like MtPleasant and Avenue Rd.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
I can think of a couple of four-lane roads close to Yonge in NYCC.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Do they get you across Highway 401,.... they just run between Sheppard and Finch, which is walking distance!
amnesiajune
Senior Member
No, but the subway does.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
and they do reconnect to yonge south of the proposed changes - where yonge is 6 lanes again.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
Sort of... The proposed changes go all the way south to Avondale. Doris currently ends at Yonge (it's supposed to be extended to Avondale but I don't think that'll ever happen for cost reasons), and Beecroft ends at Poyntz with no plans to send it any farther south.
If there's one part of the plan that needs to be thrown out and restarted, it's the Yonge/Sheppard intersection. The right turn lane needs to be on the curb side of the bike lane, and they need to make it a lot easier to get onto Beecroft and Doris if they want to ban left turns.
If there's one part of the plan that needs to be thrown out and restarted, it's the Yonge/Sheppard intersection. The right turn lane needs to be on the curb side of the bike lane, and they need to make it a lot easier to get onto Beecroft and Doris if they want to ban left turns.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
The plan doesn't reduce lanes until Sheppard however. And the city is currently expediting the extension of Doris to Avondale, they want to start construction next year. They have funding secured from what I know. I believe they are demolishing the houses in the way right now.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
It's impossible for City to extend Doris south of Sheppard to Avondale in 2018,..... the houses along west side of Bonnington Place (that you believe they would be demolishing now) are due for court case this summer (and later appeals) and then there is still one more private property ownership City still have not expropriated at south-west corner of Glendora & Tradewind. More realistic like 2020-2021,... at earliest!
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/toronto-55-sheppard-east-dead-45m-14s.19463/page-3#post-1168659
The only part of Doris extension south of Sheppard that can possibly be done in 2018 is the northern realignment of Doris Ave north of Sheppard,... as part of ReImaginingYonge with Doris and Beecroft included in project,...
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junctionist
Senior Member
NYCC is still the one with more downtown-like amenities in the civic centre and square, two subway lines, North York Central Library, and the Toronto Centre for the Arts. There's more ethnic diversity in NYCC than at either Yonge and Eglinton or Yonge and St. Clair. You have more of a mix of demographics too--there are both professionals as well as recent working class immigrants. It has buildings of different sizes and eras, which is important for neighbourhood vitality in downtowns, as Jane Jacobs observed.
I think the amount of space is a big advantage. Currently, Yonge still reflects its suburban roots. But New York has many urban streets as wide as Yonge Street in NYCC. If the public realm is overhauled with wider sidewalks, bike lanes, narrower car lanes, better medians, lush greenery, and more frequent intersections to allow pedestrians to cross, it might one day look more like Broadway than a suburban Toronto arterial road. A wide street can still be a great urban street if the focus is on pedestrians. Re-Imagine Yonge is a great opportunity to realize the urban potential of this vibrant and growing neighbourhood.
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