TOareaFan
Superstar
The hint really is in the name!
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The hint really is in the name!
Palma
Senior Member
Exactly. Lake Ontario is no longer at Front St and has obviously shrunk further south. Below is one photo from 1804
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/York_1804_Hale.jpg
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
That's interesting, I had no idea. I often wondered why Front Street wasn't at the front of anything, I guess it was.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I guess the people at Waterfront Toronto will never be out of a job since the lake keeps on moving further away.
drum118
Superstar
That is why Fort York is where it is today. Do you think Toronto could be protected to day where the fort is now?
Most people have no idea how much of the waterfront got push out from the original location.
The RR tracks going to Humber River ran alone the shore line. The Portland was only a small marsh and there was a shipping channel there at one tine.
Brandon716
Senior Member
You're right, the LRT network wouldn't be a streetcar network. It'd be two streetcars articulated running in the middle of the street, no different from Spadina or St Clair W, with stoplight priority running at the same average speeds. *Totally* different technology.
LOL
Let's not kid ourselves, TC was openly a plan to do transit on the cheap. Cheaply made transit isn't transit built to last. But, if Toronto can't come together, unite, and agree to build something the entire city will fall behind as the needless arguments continue.
As a subway supporter, I was relatively happy seeing the "compromise" to place Eglinton underground, make it above ground in Scarborough and link it in with the SRT and proceed onto a DRL at a later date. But the needless arguments seem to be starting all over again.
Rob Ford is a moron no matter how you put it, but the thing is that people who are pro-subway aren't pro-Rob Ford. Many people just want *something* coherent to be built, and built within our lifetimes.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
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1. $8bn is not pocket change. The question is what do you do with that $8bn, right? I'd rather do 'something coherent' (all-LRT) that connects the most parts of Toronto.
2. Unless and until people who are 'pro-subway but not pro-Rob Ford' come up with a way to PAY for their subway, they're pro-Ford, because they're pro-Ford's plan.
And a Q for the crowd: This is the x millionth time that someone has said that we'll still have bunching due to 8 cross streets on a very small percentage of this route. Is there no provision, anywhere along this line, for a train to be put into or taken out of service, except at each end? Is there no way to tell a driver, once they're in the tunnel, to SLOW DOWN and give some space? I find that VERY hard to believe.
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rbt
Senior Member
The Eglinton tunnel is expected to be using the exact same signaling that is being installed on the Yonge line. ATO, moving block, central transit control (exact same control center staff as the rest of the subway system), etc.
Any and all of the features available to control our subway trains are going to be available to control the LRT in tunnel as well.
Brandon716
Senior Member
No, we don't support Rob Ford. The biggest problem with $8 billion in funding is that the Miller/Giambrone setup could have made it a priority to build a DRL and forget LRT altogether. $8 billion would have went a long way toward DRL if the previous leadership would have made it a priority, unfortunately nothing is happening now because of all the in-fighting.
If DRL would have made a priority back when we had a reasonable mayor, then you wouldn't have seen this surge of infighting among different people who all support transit. Leadership tends to create the discussion and the debate that ensues follows the trends set by the leaders who set us on that path. Miller and Giambrone decided to go on the LRT bandwagon and set the city onto a divisive path, and likely caused the Rob Ford administration because so many people opposed what was seen as waste. TC was seen as a wasteful project, unfortunately Rob Ford was able to latch onto that sentiment and get votes and we ended up with mayor idiot.
TC was divisive, costly, yet cheaply done transit. It tried to do too much for too many people with too little means. Toronto could have been digging tunnels for a DRL already if the $8 billion were to have been funneled into a less debatable, immediately recognizable need.
If Rob Ford were an honorable man, he would be nice to all sides understanding that we all support transit - the TC crowd included - and start using city lawyers to see if he can use the $8 billion in finance without paying penalties to start a meaningful project like the DRL. He'd also admit his private finance scheme is a pipe dream and admit a major failure on his part.
But then again, that would be if he were a true leader and not some pompous idiot.
Brandon716
Senior Member
Mind you we're fighting over what is essentially suburban transit services. Does Toronto really need to focus so heavily on improving far-suburban locations like Finch or Sheppard when the old city needs DRL now? Sheppard subway isn't a failure, for its short length it serves more than many other transit lines in North America. 5.5km is a very, very short distance, and in that distance it achieves 50,000 ridership. If you look at the Red Line in Chicago it is very, very long at 23 miles (37km) in length, yet it gets 248,000 riders. I used to live off the Red Line in Uptown for a few months while I was in Chicago, so I've got experience riding both lines. The Red Line is one of the "backbone" lines in Chicago, the stubway in Toronto achieves more ridership per kilometer. People in Toronto do use transit heavily, whereas other North American cities don't really utilize their systems.
So I happen to think the Sheppard stubway is an example of high transit usage based on real world examples, but what didn't it do? Sheppard isn't an urban corridor, it is still suburban with increasing condo presence. This is really what it should be, seeing that its a suburban location.
I think the TC supporters mistakenly believe that TC would convert suburban Toronto to some urban utopia where Finch and Sheppard would become Queen West, but that isn't what would happen. Of course there are others who think TC was true rapid transit, it isn't, so they think it'd be the speed comparable to subways with a fraction of the cost... Which is the biggest folly of TC.
But getting back to Toronto usage, lets compare the backbone of the Chicago system: CTA's Red Line to the Yonge-Spadina subway.
Red Line length - 37km, daily ridership 250,000
Yonge-Spadina length - 30km, daily ridership 715,000
We're talking about roughly 3x the usage. Even when you add on the Brown Line elevated track downtown for the second north-south feeder into downtown Chicago, it has length of 18km and only has 105,000 riders a day.
So lets put this into perspective...
CTA Red and Brown line combined - 55km length, 355,000 riders a day.
Yonge-Spadina - 30km, 715,000 riders/day
When you start looking at other cities, you soon learn Sheppard subway isn't under-utilized at all. AT ALL.
What this is centered around is a paradox... Suburban Toronto won't become Queen West, but it needs improved transit. I have no doubt in my mind that Eglinton Crosstown would likely serve more people than the backbone of the Chicago system in years to come. I could easily see it achieve 250k riders/day. But the paradox is that a DRL in Toronto is so much more badly needed.
So I happen to think the Sheppard stubway is an example of high transit usage based on real world examples, but what didn't it do? Sheppard isn't an urban corridor, it is still suburban with increasing condo presence. This is really what it should be, seeing that its a suburban location.
I think the TC supporters mistakenly believe that TC would convert suburban Toronto to some urban utopia where Finch and Sheppard would become Queen West, but that isn't what would happen. Of course there are others who think TC was true rapid transit, it isn't, so they think it'd be the speed comparable to subways with a fraction of the cost... Which is the biggest folly of TC.
But getting back to Toronto usage, lets compare the backbone of the Chicago system: CTA's Red Line to the Yonge-Spadina subway.
Red Line length - 37km, daily ridership 250,000
Yonge-Spadina length - 30km, daily ridership 715,000
We're talking about roughly 3x the usage. Even when you add on the Brown Line elevated track downtown for the second north-south feeder into downtown Chicago, it has length of 18km and only has 105,000 riders a day.
So lets put this into perspective...
CTA Red and Brown line combined - 55km length, 355,000 riders a day.
Yonge-Spadina - 30km, 715,000 riders/day
When you start looking at other cities, you soon learn Sheppard subway isn't under-utilized at all. AT ALL.
What this is centered around is a paradox... Suburban Toronto won't become Queen West, but it needs improved transit. I have no doubt in my mind that Eglinton Crosstown would likely serve more people than the backbone of the Chicago system in years to come. I could easily see it achieve 250k riders/day. But the paradox is that a DRL in Toronto is so much more badly needed.
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Dan416
Senior Member
Brandon717, you're wasting your breath. The parrots on this board will not listen. They're just anti-Ford, all the time, regardless of what he says, they're against it. I guess it's a shame he wants to build subway. If he wanted to build LRT, they'd be calling for his head for cheaping out on Toronto and being too fiscally conservative.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I can't speak for others on the forum but I'm not anti-Ford all the time. I praise him for how he has dealt with the unions. But when it comes to transit Rob Ford has done a horrible job. His transit "plan" in basically a fantasy that he can't find a way to pay for. Furthermore, I have yet to hear from any transit experts that actually support Ford's subway fantasy.
However, though Ford has done a terrible job managing transit there are certain things that I would support him on.
-If Ford proposed extending the Sheppard Subway west to Spadina and east to past Morningside with a way to pay for it I would support him 100%. Until that happens I am pro-LRT.
-I would support Ford's Eglinton "Subway", but only if a real crosstown subway was built instead of the LRT based "subway" Ford wants.
The saddest thing about Rob Fords transit vision is that it could be built if he would just create a small 2% property tax increase and a vehicle registration tax. But he is too stubborn to do that.
calimehtar
Active Member
I love the defence of the Sheppard line, it really puts the transit debate in context assuming the facts are correct.
But unfortunately the anti-ford thing is rational - if he, or anyone, had a plan to pay for a Sheppard line we could have a rational discussion about it. As it is, it's really transit city or nothing to over-simplify a bit.
But unfortunately the anti-ford thing is rational - if he, or anyone, had a plan to pay for a Sheppard line we could have a rational discussion about it. As it is, it's really transit city or nothing to over-simplify a bit.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Plans to pay for the Sheppard subway and other lines have been proposed. But the Ford twins are far too stubborn to support any of them and because of that Ford's transit fantasy has predictably failed.
jje1000
Senior Member
100% true. Anyone can draw lines in the sand, but as they say- talk is cheap. Those who want a Sheppard line should be angry at Ford for his refusing to have a civil discussion and lack of a serious plan, not the councillors who saw through his bluster and voted for the better of the two options on the table.