Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[car4041]

When you start looking at other cities, you soon learn Sheppard subway isn't under-utilized at all. AT ALL.

Comparisons with Chicago evidently don't prove much, because the Sheppard subway requires a subsidy of $8 per rider while the TTC system as a whole requires just 84 cents per rider. That would seem to indicate that the Sheppard line is not the roaring success you make it out to be...

 

[Palma]

Brandon717, you're wasting your breath. The parrots on this board will not listen. They're just anti-Ford, all the time, regardless of what he says, they're against it. I guess it's a shame he wants to build subway. If he wanted to build LRT, they'd be calling for his head for cheaping out on Toronto and being too fiscally conservative.

If Ford is pushing for subways he should push ;it for the urban areas such as DRL. Him pushing Shappard is just political

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Comparisons with Chicago evidently don't prove much, because the Sheppard subway requires a subsidy of $8 per rider while the TTC system as a whole requires just 84 cents per rider. That would seem to indicate that the Sheppard line is not the roaring success you make it out to be...

Check out this link for a listing on farebox recovery ratio. The TTC recovers 66.7% (2009) revenue from the farebox, GO Transit recovers 88.4% (2008), Chicago CTA 55.2% (2010), Montréal STM 57.1% (2006), Los Angeles LACMTA 30.6% (2004), New York City MTA 55.5% (2009), etc.

 

[BurlOak]

However, though Ford has done a terrible job managing transit there are certain things that I would support him on.

-If Ford proposed extending the Sheppard Subway west to Spadina and east to past Morningside with a way to pay for it I would support him 100%. Until that happens I am pro-LRT.

-I would support Ford's Eglinton "Subway", but only if a real crosstown subway was built instead of the LRT based "subway" Ford wants.

The saddest thing about Rob Fords transit vision is that it could be built if he would just create a small 2% property tax increase and a vehicle registration tax. But he is too stubborn to do that.

The critical thing for Ford to do on the transit file was to act quickly because some of Transit City spending had already started - including the LRT vehicle purchase. He did that. Either Ford, or Stintz and the TTC negotiating with Metrolinx, should have considered options for vehicle type early in the process. Instead, they sat on the Memorandum of Understanding for a year and let it get defeated. I don't think Ford wanted an LRT based subway on Eglinton, but he did not get any support from TTC to switch. All Ford wanted was a transit line that does not interfere with traffic. The rest was left up to TTC and Metrolinx to plan.

For Sheppard, I think it would be even harder to find a transit expert who want to extend the Subway to Morningside than to STC.

 

[Voltz]

Comparisons with Chicago evidently don't prove much, because the Sheppard subway requires a subsidy of $8 per rider while the TTC system as a whole requires just 84 cents per rider. That would seem to indicate that the Sheppard line is not the roaring success you make it out to be...

As well, I doubt that Chicago concentrated One Billion Dollars on their line, while starving the rest of the city of needed transit infrastructure and spending One Hundred Million Dollars in operating subsidy in the first decade of operation.

 

[rbt]

I don't think Ford wanted an LRT based subway on Eglinton, but he did not get any support from TTC to switch.

TTC is required by law to follow the will of council and to a lesser extent the commission (one handles big picture and the other the day-to-day). The last orders given by council were done under Miller. TTC did stop work on both Sheppard and Eglinton (surface) and perform engineering work to put it underground on Ford's direct request which went against standing orders from council.

Normally, council should have requested a study be performed or direct the work. TTC should not, from a legal perspective, have followed any of those directions Ford gave.

I think TTC bent over about as far as they could before receiving a private citizens lawsuit.

 

[BurlOak]

TTC is required by law to follow the will of council and to a lesser extent the commission (one handles big picture and the other the day-to-day). The last orders given by council were done under Miller. TTC did stop work on both Sheppard and Eglinton (surface) and perform engineering work to put it underground on Ford's direct request which went against standing orders from council.

Normally, council should have requested a study be performed or direct the work. TTC should not, from a legal perspective, have followed any of those directions Ford gave.

I think TTC bent over about as far as they could before receiving a private citizens lawsuit.

I would have thought that if Ford was negotiating with the Province and experts from Metrolinx, he could at least bring some experts of his own to the table.

 

[rbt]

I would have thought that if Ford was negotiating with the Province and experts from Metrolinx, he could at least bring some experts of his own to the table.

Certainly. He might even have taken TTC staff if he had council take 5 minutes to give that direction or gave the mayor control of that file.

Council votes on hundreds of things during the course of a normal council meeting with very little time investment. Something like "Direct TTC to study, provide material, and assist the mayor on Eglinton as a subway and Sheppard Subway" would have taken 30 seconds in any of the first 3 council meetings and Ford would have had what he wanted.

The city's legal department told him as much early on when he started giving TTC direction directly.

 

[BurlOak]

Certainly. He might even have taken TTC staff if he had council take 5 minutes to give that direction or gave the mayor control of that file.

Council votes on hundreds of things during the course of a normal council meeting with very little time investment. Something like "Direct TTC to study, provide material, and assist the mayor on Eglinton as a subway and Sheppard Subway" would have taken 30 seconds in any of the first 3 council meetings and Ford would have had what he wanted.

The city's legal department told him as much early on when he started giving TTC direction directly.

It seems that this process is rigidly adhered to. Was anyone at TTC reprimanded for doing any type of work on this file without Council approval?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The critical thing for Ford to do on the transit file was to act quickly because some of Transit City spending had already started - including the LRT vehicle purchase. He did that. Either Ford, or Stintz and the TTC negotiating with Metrolinx, should have considered options for vehicle type early in the process. Instead, they sat on the Memorandum of Understanding for a year and let it get defeated. I don't think Ford wanted an LRT based subway on Eglinton, but he did not get any support from TTC to switch. All Ford wanted was a transit line that does not interfere with traffic. The rest was left up to TTC and Metrolinx to plan.

For Sheppard, I think it would be even harder to find a transit expert who want to extend the Subway to Morningside than to STC.

If I were Ford I would have increased property tax and reinstated the vehicle registration tax to built the Jane, Don Mills or Waterfront LRT and move the LRVs to those lines. Then I would have built the Eglinton subway and the Sheppard extension to STC and Spadina. To me that seems like the logical thing to do. But I guess that will always be a fantasy.

But when considering the complete lack of leadership by the Ford twins we got the best deal we possibly could. But its too bad that in 30 to 40 years we will be ripping up the LRT lines to replace them with subways.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

I would have thought that if Ford was negotiating with the Province and experts from Metrolinx, he could at least bring some experts of his own to the table.

Ford DID bring in the heavy-hitter experts: the retired suburban dentist and Tony Clement's ex-chief-of-staff.

 

[sixrings]

new south side entrance to allen and eglinton lrt found on crosstown.ca http://thecrosstown.ca/news-media/whats-new/allen-eglinton-station-south-entrance-consultation

 

[rbt]

It seems that this process is rigidly adhered to. Was anyone at TTC reprimanded for doing any type of work on this file without Council approval?

Not this directly, you couldn't fire people for that without also reprimanding the mayor.

 

[timeo]

1) From somewhere on Finch East, say Warden, to downtown. You can take Finch bus to Yonge (33 min), transfer (5 min), take subway downtown (25 min); total is 63 min. Or you can take Warden bus to Sheppard (8 min), transfer (5 min), take subway to Yonge (15 min), transfer again (5 min), take subway downtown (22 min); total 55 min. It is a noticeable saving.

I think you're slightly overstating the benefits of your argument. Though I don't categorically refute your thesis that people would switch, a difference in 8 minutes is not necessarily beneficial enough for the average person to take that extra transfer. I say this as someone who used to live at Warden & Steeles and would find that extra transfer unnecessary/annoying. Taking the 68 Warden down and switching onto 85 Sheppard East or 39 Finch East only happened for me if the 53 Steeles East was taking a really long-ass time (which most of the time it didn't since it has better headways than the 68). For somebody like me at least, taking one straight bus ride all the way to Finch, getting a double-double, and then getting to choose any seat I want is much better than having to transfer twice, get no coffee, and have no seating all the way downtown, even if it's 8 minutes faster.

 

[Rainforest]

I think you're slightly overstating the benefits of your argument. Though I don't categorically refute your thesis that people would switch, a difference in 8 minutes is not necessarily beneficial enough for the average person to take that extra transfer. I say this as someone who used to live at Warden & Steeles and would find that extra transfer unnecessary/annoying. Taking the 68 Warden down and switching onto 85 Sheppard East or 39 Finch East only happened for me if the 53 Steeles East was taking a really long-ass time (which most of the time it didn't since it has better headways than the 68). For somebody like me at least, taking one straight bus ride all the way to Finch, getting a double-double, and then getting to choose any seat I want is much better than having to transfer twice, get no coffee, and have no seating all the way downtown, even if it's 8 minutes faster.

I realize that different people have different tastes; but would think that quite a few (myself included) will choose a faster trip even if it costs an extra transfer.

Moreover, in your example you trade one bus for another bus, that means no change in the service quality. In my example, the riders would trade a long bus ride for a subway ride (along Sheppard); that means a somewhat more comfortable trip, including a double-double at the station and a fair chance of getting a seat.